Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Peat Extract

e.liska - 19-10-2017 at 23:25

Anybody knows what chemicals are in peat extract made with distilled water at room temperature? I have a book on peat that describes lots of chemicals extracted with organic solvents, hydroxides etc., but I would like to know the contents of the pure water extract.

Melgar - 20-10-2017 at 02:55

Well, one issue with that is that peat has typically had rainwater running past it for years, and of course, that's basically the same thing. So a lot of things have been pretty well leached out by rain already, and you shouldn't expect to get much from additional water extractions.

There are things like fulvic acids and humic acids, which act like ion exchange resins to a degree. I believe that fulvic acids are soluble in distilled water even, but are just parts of humic acids that have decomposed to where they're small enough that they're water-soluble. The wikipedia page on "humic acid" explains it pretty well.

e.liska - 20-10-2017 at 03:40

Well, the extract from peat made with distilled water (or to be exact, reverse osmosis water), has nice brown color, so it is clear it is full of chemicals. The point is, in the book (Charles H. Fuchsman Peat Industrial Chemistry and Technology, downloadable from Library Genesis), there are many interesting chemicals listed, including hormones and other biologically active substances, but they are extracting with various optimized methods. What I want to know, what is the range of chemicals in water extracts that I use. Speaking of biology, even small amounts of e.g hormones may be important. But I presume, doing such an analysis at home and without a large budget is near to impossible and I cannot find an article that answers my question.

Basically, water peat extracts are used in somewhat alchemical way (peat is good), but I would like to understand it more deeply.

barbs09 - 20-10-2017 at 04:14

Tannins / tannic acid I would have presumed.

e.liska - 20-10-2017 at 04:32

Yes, but it is probably orders of magnitude more complex.

e.liska - 20-10-2017 at 04:34

Btw, if the peat extract contains salts (if it was not prepared in pure water but by alkaline extraction and neutralization, which is probably the way commercial extracts are made), what is the easiest way to get rid of the salts (probably NaCl) while keeping the organics?

Melgar - 20-10-2017 at 04:37

Typically, an organic compound with a brown color will be a fairly large molecule, whether it's a polymer/oligomer or a poorly-characterized arrangement of different functional groups. Imagine sugar caramelizing, for example.

barbs09 - 20-10-2017 at 04:37

That is why a good Scottish single malt has such a complex uniqueness about it :). I suspect a journal dedicated to whisky production would have a fair bit of peat chemistry in it.

e.liska - 20-10-2017 at 04:47

How to get rid of the salt? Would some kind of ultrafiltration work? Cheaply at home?

Boffis - 20-10-2017 at 06:12

@barbs09, Whiskey gets its flavour from the use of peat to dry the malt. Even dried peat tend to be pretty smoky when it burns and the smoke is full of phenolic compounds which are absorbed by the drying malt. This is then made into whiskey. Some whisky from Islay contain more than 60ppm of guaiacol (2-methoxyphenol) and many other related compounds. Guaiacol specifically has a smoky aroma. But these compounds are thermal degradation products of the peat, presumaly from the humic acids etc.

Some peats contain waxy compounds that can be extracted but not with water. There has been research into the the subject of thrmal degradation of peat as a source of phenolic compounds and waxes but I don't have any references to hand.

barbs09 - 20-10-2017 at 07:06

Boffis, you have my respect.

hissingnoise - 20-10-2017 at 10:24

Quote:
Some peats contain waxy compounds that can be extracted but not with water


And there's Nodon's process which extracts HNO3 from peat bogs in
this book.

It's also in the forum library but won't display for me, for some reason...


Melgar - 20-10-2017 at 13:01

Quote: Originally posted by e.liska  
Btw, if the peat extract contains salts (if it was not prepared in pure water but by alkaline extraction and neutralization, which is probably the way commercial extracts are made), what is the easiest way to get rid of the salts (probably NaCl) while keeping the organics?

Because the organics would be partially decomposed, and have phenol groups in them, there would be a lot of acidic sites on them, so a base extraction would make them more soluble. Likewise, acidifying that extraction would make the organics less soluble, generating a very soluble inorganic salt in the process.

CharlieA - 20-10-2017 at 16:46

@hissing_noise: thanks for that book link. I saved the book, as a jpeg (?!). I've also tried to download it from the forum library without success.

e.liska - 20-10-2017 at 17:46

Please delete.

[Edited on 21-10-2017 by e.liska]

hissingnoise - 21-10-2017 at 03:22

Quote:
@hissingnoise: thanks for that book link

You're welcome ─ and if you're into EM you probably noticed Urbanski et al there, too...
Quote:
Please delete

There is a big !delete this message! on the edit page, don'cha know...?


NEMO-Chemistry - 21-10-2017 at 04:05

Are you using a purchased peat extract? say one designed for aquariums? If so be aware these are not made from peat exactly, look at patents from Tetra etc they give details. The hormones in those have been added they are optimized for fish.

We live on a peat bog (part of our field), the water run off is always changing as things decay and leech. the comment on scotch whiskey is actually really relevant, different Islands here have different peats.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1433831904...

[Edited on 21-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 21-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Attachment: gusewell2002.pdf (1.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 395 times

e.liska - 22-10-2017 at 04:00

I make my own extracts from peat and other substances (not only for, but also, for fish) and I usually have better experiences with DIY extracts that with the commercial ones. But what I want is more insight and to know what I am doing and why. Do you have any link for the patents or composition of the commercial extracts? Cannot find that information.

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 07:17

you need to look on google patent, yes its not so easy to find fish products, unless its lights or filters!!

I will have a go as I looked for testing kits a little while ago. I did find some in the end but it was hassle.


I will look but cant promise I will come up with much, also from memory the commercial peat stuff dosnt contain much but tannin's. I keep Discus and apistosgramas amongst others, I think maybe a lit search in fish journals on the fish you have in mind is better. For example take discus, if you look at the Amazon region then goto google scholar and look in fish health journals etc for that area.

its likely to throw up more info.

Can you give more details what your trying to do? Like is this for a super duper black water extract for Discus or something like that? Its makes it easier to narrow down where to search if you can give some info. Especially with fish, there is alot of fish journals, so a peat extract search in a fish journal, will give different results to a peat extract search in say a Scotch whiskey journal.

Ask Woelen for access to references if you dont have it, if I can find anything I will post it all in a thread in there.

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Also forgot to say, if its mainly for fish, then blackwater and peat extracts contain alot of humic stuff, this is because the areas they are found have alot of leaves on the bottom of the water bodies. Killi fish extracts are different again.

https://link.springer.com/journal/volumesAndIssues/10641

is a good place to start looking for fish related stuff. Do a search for papers in that and other journals, take down the DOI number and I am sure people can get you the full papers and post in references, but I cant do much until I understand exactly what your trying to do, just studying peat is kinda broad.

I think the reason why and the purpose of the study helps alot more in this case. otherwise we could just give you info on how peat bogs are formed etc, when in reality your looking for conditions of the water in X area for x fish.

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

unionised - 22-10-2017 at 07:29

This may help.
http://edepot.wur.nl/282562

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 07:33

And if it is fish related start say here with patents
https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5942232?dq=aquarium+water...

If you goto the bottom you find other patents that are referenced or been used within the current one, its worth looking at these as well, do that for each patent, sooner or later you normally get something useful.

e.liska - 22-10-2017 at 07:38

I mostly try to reproduce plants, fish and other critters, that have not been, or are only very rarely, reproduced in captivity. So while reading aquarium and other similar literature is useful, it does not contain all I need, because I am trying to push the boundaries here. The area I am most interested in geographically, are the peat swam forests of Malaysia and Indonesia. Think about fish like rare blackwater bettas, blackwater gouramis and other animals or plants. Some people are lucky with some of the species, but it is usually pure alchemy and they are often not able to effectively pass their experience on. So I would like to understand more deeply what is in the water, what should, what should not and what makes the difference. Reading that book on peat, I think many bioactive substances may play a role. But it is probably too difficult to analyze.

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by e.liska]

Thanks for the links.

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by e.liska]

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 07:45

There are fish journals specifically to do with this kind of thing, search for actual journals to do with the subject. Then search those

as an example

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/advanced/search/results?start...

I will grab some fish specifically related ones as well.

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

e.liska - 22-10-2017 at 07:54

The link is probably incomplete.

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 08:12

works for me. The chemistry your looking at is probably a bit of a red herring. Post the Latin names of the fish you want to breed, From that I can find relevant info for you if it exists.

Sometimes when all else fails, look at the species found in the same area (natural habitat) and breed at same time, copy conditions for them.

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 08:14

There is so much info, i would need fish names to narrow it down.


Maybe next week when I get some time, grab me on skype, often chemistry is a small part of the breeding trigger, I have alot of experience with south American Dwarf Chichlids, I keep and breed alot of the rare types. I can probably help you better from Skype messenger.

Passing papers to you is a bit easier also as many are not really chem related.
Attachment: martin2007.pdf (452kB)
This file has been downloaded 426 times


EDIT
I am going to guess your targets are Parosphromenus deissneri or similar species, is that correct?
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 08:29

If that is correct, then you would for example do a search and start at a paper like the attached, then go through the references listed and look any relevant ones.

But I think directly searching the species of fish gives you a better chance.



Attachment: ng1994.pdf (1.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 467 times

e.liska - 22-10-2017 at 08:31

Now I have Luciocephalus. But Parosphromenus also fit my interest.

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 08:43

Try these, pm me your skype details. Doing it by guess work like this is hard to know what info you want.

You need to chase up some of the references in the papers to get better info.

Attachment: 42_71.pdf (5.5MB)
This file has been downloaded 360 times

Attachment: 4-5-31-731.pdf (432kB)
This file has been downloaded 369 times

e.liska - 22-10-2017 at 09:14

I do not have skype, I use irc for instant messaging. I would love to recreate water conditions, say for the Luciocephalus, as close as possible, including the seasonal variation. But believe me, that kind of info is lacking in the literature, pH, conductivity and some anorganic parameters are usually listed (even that not very reliably), but the organics info is lacking ("water in the biotope is black" is the usual level of information provided). So I want to expand that black color information to more specific chemistry, or when doing experiments, know better why my mixture of peat, oak leaves and alder cones (for example) works well or not.

In my experience regarding fish, water + food is 99% of the equation. Food is tricky (for example hormones from living insects cannot be replaced by any commercial food) and the water even more so. But so far, it has been all experiments and alchemy, I would like to engage more (bio)chemical theory.

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 09:24

Quote: Originally posted by e.liska  
I do not have skype, I use irc for instant messaging. I would love to recreate water conditions, say for the Luciocephalus, as close as possible, including the seasonal variation. But believe me, that kind of info is lacking in the literature, pH, conductivity and some anorganic parameters are usually listed (even that not very reliably), but the organics info is lacking ("water in the biotope is black" is the usual level of information provided). So I want to expand that black color information to more specific chemistry, or when doing experiments, know better why my mixture of peat, oak leaves and alder cones (for example) works well or not.

In my experience regarding fish, water + food is 99% of the equation. Food is tricky (for example hormones from living insects cannot be replaced by any commercial food) and the water even more so. But so far, it has been all experiments and alchemy, I would like to engage more (bio)chemical theory.


There is alot of info on water chemistry in different areas. often its more simple than that however. Water is not the same two days in a row let alone two seasons and yet fish breed.

If you goto the area however you find some things are the same.
just as an example...

Wild caught cardinal Tetra are difficult to breed, but if you raise the nitrates gradually and feed live foods, then suddenly lower nitrates and TDS you can trigger spawning.

Also another avenue is not just the peat but as you mentioned, look at the species of tree and breeding season of fish. if the spawning comes after fall then the leaves may play a part, so look for related tree species and use those leaves instead.

Gouramis are most likely to spawn during harsh conditions or just after harsh conditions. So look at how to keep Ammonia low and up nitrates. This you can do by good filtration and then add additional nitrate.

Get access to the ref section of forum, When I get a chance I will post any info I can find on water in the area and the fish you have mentioned. Trying to replicate the actual chemical composition is not easy, but personally I think this can be more general.

Following the seasonal pattern of water quality in the area is more likely to give results.

Give me a few days and I will see what I can find

But try the other trick as well, look at the other fish found in the same area, often you can get breeding info on these, obviously the water conditions etc will be the same if they breed same time of year ;).

This is what many commercial fih farms in those areas do.

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 22-10-2017 at 09:37

This is a good example, blackwater is often considered acidic and little calcium, however read this paper on the areas your interested in, some are blackwater swamps, the water is peat based but not very acidic, it also has alot of calcium in.

I think this is more like the information you will need. Again try and search for the papers to follow up that are mentioned in the bib on the paper. then ask for those papers in the ref section.

Attachment: johnson1967.pdf (1.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 318 times
Some files are too large to post. one that gives alot of water info on the area is
http://repository.um.edu.my/41864/1/AJEES,%201_1_,%201-16.pd...

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1026004315978

https://link.springer.com/journal/volumesAndIssues/10641

http://www.razipublishing.com/archives/ESMY/2017-issue1/1.%2...

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Roshani_Othman/publicat...

There is definitely alot of water specific information of the areas in google scholars and some the journals.

http://ctsa.org/files/publications/CTSA_13563177793752850177...
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]