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e.liska
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Peat Extract
Anybody knows what chemicals are in peat extract made with distilled water at room temperature? I have a book on peat that describes lots of chemicals
extracted with organic solvents, hydroxides etc., but I would like to know the contents of the pure water extract.
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Melgar
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Well, one issue with that is that peat has typically had rainwater running past it for years, and of course, that's basically the same thing. So a
lot of things have been pretty well leached out by rain already, and you shouldn't expect to get much from additional water extractions.
There are things like fulvic acids and humic acids, which act like ion exchange resins to a degree. I believe that fulvic acids are soluble in
distilled water even, but are just parts of humic acids that have decomposed to where they're small enough that they're water-soluble. The wikipedia
page on "humic acid" explains it pretty well.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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e.liska
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Well, the extract from peat made with distilled water (or to be exact, reverse osmosis water), has nice brown color, so it is clear it is full of
chemicals. The point is, in the book (Charles H. Fuchsman Peat Industrial Chemistry and Technology, downloadable from Library Genesis), there are many
interesting chemicals listed, including hormones and other biologically active substances, but they are extracting with various optimized methods.
What I want to know, what is the range of chemicals in water extracts that I use. Speaking of biology, even small amounts of e.g hormones may be
important. But I presume, doing such an analysis at home and without a large budget is near to impossible and I cannot find an article that answers my
question.
Basically, water peat extracts are used in somewhat alchemical way (peat is good), but I would like to understand it more deeply.
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barbs09
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Tannins / tannic acid I would have presumed.
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e.liska
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Yes, but it is probably orders of magnitude more complex.
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e.liska
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Btw, if the peat extract contains salts (if it was not prepared in pure water but by alkaline extraction and neutralization, which is probably the way
commercial extracts are made), what is the easiest way to get rid of the salts (probably NaCl) while keeping the organics?
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Melgar
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Typically, an organic compound with a brown color will be a fairly large molecule, whether it's a polymer/oligomer or a poorly-characterized
arrangement of different functional groups. Imagine sugar caramelizing, for example.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
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barbs09
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That is why a good Scottish single malt has such a complex uniqueness about it  .
I suspect a journal dedicated to whisky production would have a fair bit of peat chemistry in it.
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e.liska
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How to get rid of the salt? Would some kind of ultrafiltration work? Cheaply at home?
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Boffis
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@barbs09, Whiskey gets its flavour from the use of peat to dry the malt. Even dried peat tend to be pretty smoky when it burns and the smoke is full
of phenolic compounds which are absorbed by the drying malt. This is then made into whiskey. Some whisky from Islay contain more than 60ppm of
guaiacol (2-methoxyphenol) and many other related compounds. Guaiacol specifically has a smoky aroma. But these compounds are thermal degradation
products of the peat, presumaly from the humic acids etc.
Some peats contain waxy compounds that can be extracted but not with water. There has been research into the the subject of thrmal degradation of peat
as a source of phenolic compounds and waxes but I don't have any references to hand.
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barbs09
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Boffis, you have my respect.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | Some peats contain waxy compounds that can be extracted but not with water |
And there's Nodon's process which extracts HNO3 from peat bogs in
this book.
It's also in the forum library but won't display for me, for some reason...
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Melgar
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Quote: Originally posted by e.liska  | | Btw, if the peat extract contains salts (if it was not prepared in pure water but by alkaline extraction and neutralization, which is probably the way
commercial extracts are made), what is the easiest way to get rid of the salts (probably NaCl) while keeping the organics? |
Because the organics would be partially decomposed, and have phenol groups in them, there would be a lot of acidic sites on them, so a base extraction
would make them more soluble. Likewise, acidifying that extraction would make the organics less soluble, generating a very soluble inorganic salt in
the process.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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CharlieA
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@hissing_noise: thanks for that book link. I saved the book, as a jpeg (?!). I've also tried to download it from the forum library without success.
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e.liska
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Please delete.
[Edited on 21-10-2017 by e.liska]
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | @hissingnoise: thanks for that book link |
You're welcome ─ and if you're into EM you probably noticed Urbanski et al there, too...
There is a big !delete this message! on the edit page, don'cha know...?
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NEMO-Chemistry
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Are you using a purchased peat extract? say one designed for aquariums? If so be aware these are not made from peat exactly, look at patents from
Tetra etc they give details. The hormones in those have been added they are optimized for fish.
We live on a peat bog (part of our field), the water run off is always changing as things decay and leech. the comment on scotch whiskey is actually
really relevant, different Islands here have different peats.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1433831904...
[Edited on 21-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
[Edited on 21-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
Attachment: gusewell2002.pdf (1.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 395 times
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e.liska
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I make my own extracts from peat and other substances (not only for, but also, for fish) and I usually have better experiences with DIY extracts that
with the commercial ones. But what I want is more insight and to know what I am doing and why. Do you have any link for the patents or composition of
the commercial extracts? Cannot find that information.
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NEMO-Chemistry
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you need to look on google patent, yes its not so easy to find fish products, unless its lights or filters!!
I will have a go as I looked for testing kits a little while ago. I did find some in the end but it was hassle.
I will look but cant promise I will come up with much, also from memory the commercial peat stuff dosnt contain much but tannin's. I keep Discus and
apistosgramas amongst others, I think maybe a lit search in fish journals on the fish you have in mind is better. For example take discus, if you look
at the Amazon region then goto google scholar and look in fish health journals etc for that area.
its likely to throw up more info.
Can you give more details what your trying to do? Like is this for a super duper black water extract for Discus or something like that? Its makes it
easier to narrow down where to search if you can give some info. Especially with fish, there is alot of fish journals, so a peat extract search in a
fish journal, will give different results to a peat extract search in say a Scotch whiskey journal.
Ask Woelen for access to references if you dont have it, if I can find anything I will post it all in a thread in there.
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
Also forgot to say, if its mainly for fish, then blackwater and peat extracts contain alot of humic stuff, this is because the areas they are found
have alot of leaves on the bottom of the water bodies. Killi fish extracts are different again.
https://link.springer.com/journal/volumesAndIssues/10641
is a good place to start looking for fish related stuff. Do a search for papers in that and other journals, take down the DOI number and I am sure
people can get you the full papers and post in references, but I cant do much until I understand exactly what your trying to do, just studying peat is
kinda broad.
I think the reason why and the purpose of the study helps alot more in this case. otherwise we could just give you info on how peat bogs are formed
etc, when in reality your looking for conditions of the water in X area for x fish.
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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unionised
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This may help.
http://edepot.wur.nl/282562
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NEMO-Chemistry
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And if it is fish related start say here with patents
https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5942232?dq=aquarium+water...
If you goto the bottom you find other patents that are referenced or been used within the current one, its worth looking at these as well, do that for
each patent, sooner or later you normally get something useful.
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e.liska
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I mostly try to reproduce plants, fish and other critters, that have not been, or are only very rarely, reproduced in captivity. So while reading
aquarium and other similar literature is useful, it does not contain all I need, because I am trying to push the boundaries here. The area I am most
interested in geographically, are the peat swam forests of Malaysia and Indonesia. Think about fish like rare blackwater bettas, blackwater gouramis
and other animals or plants. Some people are lucky with some of the species, but it is usually pure alchemy and they are often not able to effectively
pass their experience on. So I would like to understand more deeply what is in the water, what should, what should not and what makes the difference.
Reading that book on peat, I think many bioactive substances may play a role. But it is probably too difficult to analyze.
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by e.liska]
Thanks for the links.
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by e.liska]
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NEMO-Chemistry
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There are fish journals specifically to do with this kind of thing, search for actual journals to do with the subject. Then search those
as an example
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/advanced/search/results?start...
I will grab some fish specifically related ones as well.
[Edited on 22-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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e.liska
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The link is probably incomplete.
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NEMO-Chemistry
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works for me. The chemistry your looking at is probably a bit of a red herring. Post the Latin names of the fish you want to breed, From that I can
find relevant info for you if it exists.
Sometimes when all else fails, look at the species found in the same area (natural habitat) and breed at same time, copy conditions for them.
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