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Portable Lab

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 11:50

I have decided I would like to make some more bromine and do some other fairly dangerous syntheses. For safety reasons, I'd like to do this outside, but in my current location, that probably isn't a good idea though it is technically legal. My plan is to head out someplace remote and then pack the lab up a power line trail along the public right-of-way to a reasonably secluded location and set up the lab on public lands. According to the research I've done, this is legal as long as the lab is not left in place for more than two weeks at a time, and I'd probably be leaving it in place for a couple of hours, tops.

I figure I'll need a large backpack and some tarps, a blanket for wrapping the glassware, a propane stove for heating a water bath, bottles for holding various chemicals (sulfuric acid, hydrogen peroxide, sodium bromide, and of course a good bottle for holding bromine), a couple gallons of water, a lawn tractor battery and inverter, a small bucket, and a small hydroponics pump. If I decide to make aluminum bromide this way, I'll probably also need some table salt or other suitable high-temperature bath material.

I'm reasonably strong, but I don't think I would enjoy carrying more than 25 kilograms through the woods for a long distance. The major drawbacks I can see of doing things this way are that I can only carry limited quantities of water, and I don't think I can carry sufficient electrical power for heating or stirring for long periods of time. So heating will need to be by flame. I think I can dispose of most of the wastes in a stream or river, but I'd have to pack the wastes out if working with environmental toxins.

The major flaw in this idea, as I see it, is that I still haven't decided what I'm going to use as a bench... I definitely am not relishing the idea of balancing lab stands on sticks, stones and piles of dirt or clamping the apparatus to a tree. The bench needs to be something lightweight and collapsible yet sturdy.

Any ideas?

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by JJay]

Elemental Phosphorus - 5-3-2017 at 12:22

Maybe put all your equipment into a plywood crate with wheels, set up equipment on top. Sort of like a "chuck box" with one extra thick side for setting up on. Also, disposing of bromine waste in a stream sound like a bad idea, ecspecially on public property. If you will be roughly hauling reagent bottles around, try getting the plastic-coated ones. Dr. Bob sells them. Also consider some bicarbonate and a decent first aid kit.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 12:30

I won't be able to use wheels where I'm headed.

I actually don't think disposing of bromine waste in a stream would be so bad if it were made with sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. There are things I wouldn't put in a stream... chromium compounds, heavy metals, solvents, etc... but bromide salts are extremely widespread in nature.

I guess I could pack out the wastes. I'm doing some reading on how to dispose of dish water while camping, and it is recommended to do so 200 feet from a body of water. That seems a bit environmentally paranoid to me, but I guess that on a large scale or if everyone were dumping bromine waste into streams, there would be a problem.

I have plastic-coated reagent bottles. Also, I'll be taking along some sodium thiosulfate and sodium carbonate.

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by JJay]

Elemental Phosphorus - 5-3-2017 at 12:47

Maybe have a friend help carry the container then. When I go camping we have crates with things like cooking utensils, soap, firestarters, matches, etc. but you will only be out for a few hours so substitute those items for chemicals, stoves, etc. Having someone else is always advantageous when out in the woods and to help you if something goes wrong with dangerous chemicals.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 12:51

Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus

Maybe have a friend help carry the container then. When I go camping we have crates with things like cooking utensils, soap, firestarters, matches, etc. but you will only be out for a few hours so substitute those items for chemicals, stoves, etc. Having someone else is always advantageous when out in the woods and to help you if something goes wrong with dangerous chemicals.

Carrying a heavy crate into the woods is not really an option; while it might be possible to carry one for a couple of hundred yards or so, it's not a reasonable idea if going even a few miles.

Taking someone along is probably not a bad idea. I still have no idea what to use as a bench....

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by JJay]

WGTR - 5-3-2017 at 13:02

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Taking someone along is probably not a bad idea. I still have no idea what to use as a bench....

"Dang it! Stop wiggling around! How can I balance this graduated cylinder on your back if you won't act like a proper lab bench! I only dripped a little sulfuric on you once!"

Elemental Phosphorus - 5-3-2017 at 13:51

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

Taking someone along is probably not a bad idea. I still have no idea what to use as a bench....

"Dang it! Stop wiggling around! How can I balance this graduated cylinder on your back if you won't act like a proper lab bench! I only dripped a little sulfuric on you once!"

There's an idea! Use another person as a bench. Actually though, you could try and set up a foldable table, then come back with supplies later.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 14:37

I might be able to fit one of these into a duffle bag, but it's definitely bulkier than ideal, not to mention flammable:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/34-Square-Fold-in-Half-Table-Blac...

WGTR - 5-3-2017 at 17:02

If you're intent on doing this, then IIWM (If It Were Me) my first thought would be to weld up some clever little cabinet that's small enough to fit into your pack (but then again, maybe I'm just nuts). Inside, everything would be held in place exactly where it needs to be to perform whatever reaction was intended, needing only to have the heat cranked up at your destination to let 'er rip. Of course, things would need to be shock-mounted to withstand the vibration of travel. It might require miniature or custom glassware, and the preparation would be a project in and of itself.

I'd feel personally uncomfortable going off alone in the middle of nowhere to do some dangerous procedure if I'd never done it before (and even then...). In any case I'd rather start by doing a lengthily practice run with some harmless chemicals, to (hopefully) identify potential disasters or inconveniences that could occur with a more demanding synthesis. You also might not be as alone as you think you'd be...you'd have to spend some time out there to get a feel for it.

j_sum1 - 5-3-2017 at 17:59

This whole thing seems a bit nuts to me.
I'd be thinking of somewhere that I could drive to -- an old quarry, a patch of desert, the corner of a mate's farm or something. I understand the need to do these kind of things outdoors and away from prying eyes. But trekking for miles into the woods seems odd.
And if you are going to go to all the effort to build a portable rig, why not rather invest the time, money and effort into building a fume hood.

Furthermore, for Br2, there are measures you can take with traps and wash solutions that can keep the release of vapour right down. You should look at what UC235 did in his garage without a fume hood. Copy that good practice. It seems to me that this venture is mostly an invitation for all kinds of things to go wrong: including but not limited to, unforeseen spills and breakages, misunderstanding by someone who happens to witness what you are doing, mishaps resulting from using untested equipment, unfamiliar procedures and not having your normal lab resources to fix things up.

See if you can arrive at a setup with zero chance of brominating a squirrel.

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by j_sum1]

wg48 - 5-3-2017 at 19:01

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

This whole thing seems a bit nuts to me.

I thought it was crazy too especially as initially I thought he was going lay a power cable from his house to the location LOL

If a cop spots him he will probably be thrown in jail as a suspected cook

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 19:09

*yawn*

First off, in this country, a cop can't just throw you in jail on suspicion. But I don't really want them showing up outside my residence expressing their disapproval. It may be legal to distill bromine in a business district in front of an apartment complex, but that doesn't mean they are going to like the idea.

Obviously I'd be setting up some sort of screen so random hikers think I'm just out camping or something. What's crazy about doing chemical reactions outside away from people and buildings, exactly?

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

symboom - 5-3-2017 at 19:19

This is a great idea a lot of times remote locations are better the user plante1999 I saw a picture of his portable lab he has everything in a suit case. Although going into the woods with a suit case would look odd.
I guess using coat hangers as lab apparatus such as the one in the golden book of experiments has some great illustrations. The use of glass tubing and test tube should help. As for heat alcohol and propane mini stoves should be enough. a platform nailed and chained to a tree for example could be of use or a board between two trees.
That is what could be done could be more hassle than its worth

As for worying about bromine gasses sodium hydroxide as a great gas scubber for a lot of gasses such as chlorine bromine and sulfur dioxide

As for the one that doesnt work with sodium hydroxide ammonia gas can be scrubed with magnesium sulfate

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by symboom]

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 19:37

I think scrubbers are a good idea, but they aren't foolproof. UC235 may have been able to evacuate his garage if an accident happened, but I can't just run to the the neighbors and be like, "Oh hi, sorry to bother you, but I spilled some bromine, and with the way the wind is blowing, there's a good chance that your place will be filled with toxic fumes. Would you mind clearing out for a few hours?" Admittedly, this is a worst case scenario, but I'm not really comfortable with the idea that all that stands between me and getting evicted is a few mm of borosilicate glass.

(Oh and while I suppose I could just cobble together some sort of fume hood in my van, I would actually feel safer just doing things outside.)

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

dactyl - 5-3-2017 at 20:21

Depending on the spectrum of possible craziness, in some areas like say Ohio you might be looking at two charges:
2909.07 Criminal mischief. most specifically
A(1)(a)(2)in part 2) With purpose to interfere with the use or enjoyment of property of another, employ a tear gas device, stink bomb, smoke generator, or other device releasing a substance that is harmful or offensive to persons exposed or that tends to cause public alarm;
and
2909.06
possibly in relation to(2) Recklessly, by means of fire, explosion, flood, poison gas, poison, radioactive material, caustic or corrosive material, or other inherently dangerous agency or substance.
Definitions of reckless and physical harm to property ( that last definition could be argued to be somewhat broad, probably due to "in any degree") are in General Provisions. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901
But I admit chances of getting caught with these charges for making bromine (or any thing really) are probably lower than charges for instance, say, statutory rape in Ohio which based on my perusual of county prosecutor websites, online newspapers, and online court docket searches and appeal decisions for several years is infrequently charged ( like one county does 2 prosecutions per year).
Then again, bromine can be really smelly to some sensitive people and if one is caught making bromine thy're looking at a theoretically possible 2 yr. mandatory sentence because manufacture means "engage in any part of the production of a drug"; bromine is known to have some utility in drug production.(http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2925.01 http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2925.041v1
On the bench topic, this might be easier to carry in a duffel bag if it should weigh less (wt of this is 15.4 lbs). https://www.amazon.com/Cosco-Resin-Folding-Table-Black/dp/B0... I couldn't find the weight of the product of the Walmart link.

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by dactyl]

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 20:40

Oh, around here they prosecute statutory rape quite frequently, but a charge of criminal mischief requires actual damage to property and doesn't stick without a guilty plea. But still, I'd rather not deal with the police over bromine (or anything else).

I'm not sure if that tabletop folds. I've seen lightweight aluminum tables that are intended for camping (which would be harder to set on fire), but they are too small....

Oh and while bromine certainly *can* be used to make drugs, I think that's actually pretty uncommon, and they would certainly not be able to prove that it is being used to make any sort of drug.

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

dactyl - 5-3-2017 at 20:45

The aluminum table as we know would also making a nice flashing table if bromine fell on it which would be cool to watch

but a pain to dismantle.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 20:49

Quote: Originally posted by dactyl

The aluminum table as we know would also making a nice flashing table if bromine fell on it which would be cool to watch

but a pain to dismantle.

True... the resin top would hold up better to corrosive substances....

j_sum1 - 5-3-2017 at 21:03

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

*yawn*

First off, in this country, a cop can't just throw you in jail on suspicion. But I don't really want them showing up outside my residence expressing their disapproval. It may be legal to distill bromine in a business district in front of an apartment complex, but that doesn't mean they are going to like the idea.

Obviously I'd be setting up some sort of screen so random hikers think I'm just out camping or something. What's crazy about doing chemical reactions outside away from people and buildings, exactly?

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

Ok I admit that part of my reaction might be one of perception. Where I come from, a 1 mile walk into the woods has you in effectively a wilderness area. The culture is pack in, pack out and leave no trace. Therefore you don't just consider environmental damage. You also consider any kind of impact that you might have. Glass for example is to be avoided since a breakage will be awkward to clean up.

With that in mind, if I was considering an outdoor lab i would be looking for a road-end or off-road track or some other kind of seldom accessed place that I could drive to. It would have the positive spin off of meaning I could carry everything I needed easily including table or bench if required.

But I am still perplexed. Take the issue of condensing your bromine. You are away from piped water that you can feed through your condenser. Sure you could use a bucket and pump circulator but then you also need a power supply. And if something unexpected happens you probably want some ice to throw into the bucket. This all just adds to the complexities of the procedure. And you want some clean up gear in case you accidentally knock the thing over. (It happens.) All this gear adds up.

Given that Br2 can be isolated safely without release of fumes, I just think that this is a step in the wrong direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9ehxTaYRs

I can see a case for a portable lab under some circumstances and I am not against the idea on philosophical grounds. But In this particular circumstance I just don't see that it makes good sense.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 21:39

I respectfully completely disagree with you on this. I think the perception that bromine can be isolated safely without release of fumes is simply wrong. You'll note that UC235 mentions early on in the video that he had a significant accident involving bromine. While this would certainly be a serious problem in a garage, it would be an outright disaster in an apartment building; it's a risk that isn't even worth considering.

Ideally, the culture here would be pack in, pack out, leave no trace, but in reality, it's more like pack in, find a lot of garbage and abandoned homeless camps, pack out, and really, you'd probably actually just be disinfecting someone else's germs if you dump some small amounts of halogens in the water, but I can see how that might not be the best idea. I mean, really, you're not even supposed to dump your canteen out in a stream. So ok, packing out the waste is fine.

I don't think I'd need to dump ice in the bucket, and even if I did, there's a foot and a half of snow on the ground, and those mountain streams aren't exactly toasty warm. I just don't want to clean mud out of my pump and condensers.

Clean-up gear in this case would probably consist of some sodium thiosulfate, a plastic bag, and rubber gloves.

j_sum1 - 5-3-2017 at 21:51

Ok. I thought it was worth raising the point anyway. (And I didn't think of snow on the ground either. Its is sweltering here.)

Exactly how did you think you would go about setting up the condenser? It sounds like a simple glass tube and snow pack might work.

It is clear that you have a location in mind that you think is workable. Have you exhausted other possibilities that are drive-to and don't involve carrying the gear?

Brominating squirrels did appeal to my bent humour in any case.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 22:11

I've considered some drive-to locations, but they would necessarily involve packing the lab away from crowds. The place I have in mind is not exactly pristine wilderness. I went and checked it out a few days ago and found it surrounded by abandoned homeless camps, as well as an active one, complete with a friendly homeless guy who looked like he hadn't showered in at least a week. His camp was pretty well hidden; even with his campfire I wouldn't have seen it, but the tracks to it were a dead giveaway.

I'd use a lawn tractor battery with an inverter and aquarium pump. A glass tube packed with snow might work, but then again, bromine is pretty volatile, so I'd want to use a Graham condenser. Also, by running water through the condenser, there's less risk of bromine freezing in it. I think that's unlikely to happen, but I certainly wouldn't want to have to clear frozen bromine out of a condenser....

macckone - 5-3-2017 at 23:28

To get arrested the cop only has to have a probable cause.
Some guy doing chemistry in the woods is enough to hold
up in court. You will be sitting in the jail until they run the
samples and determine you were not doing anything illegal.
And they will still try to make a case. If nothing else they
will try to get you on some kind of public hazard charge.
These are usually reserved for illegal storage of flammable
liquids but would probably apply in these situations as the
fire code is pretty complex and violating it can range from a
misdemeanor to a serious felony. Best to do chemistry
inside of a building or in a fenced yard.

JJay - 6-3-2017 at 03:24

Violating the fire code most places doesn't usually even result in a fine, but if you do, it does major damage to your property resale values and can make your insurance go up. It's not a crime; it is a civil offense. If you refuse to comply and they press the issue, they have sanctions available (which can include things like leins and condemning the property), but there is no possible way to enforce against 90% of violations and enforcement authorities are rarely aware of specific violations. Do you have any idea how common code violations are??

People routinely get away with code violations, especially in their own homes; code violations are just distasteful.

JJay - 6-3-2017 at 03:33

Also, they can't just arrest you for doing chemistry, and they can't hold you in jail while they search for probable cause in any common law jurisdiction. Do you know what a writ of habeas corpus is?

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

Corrosive Joeseph - 6-3-2017 at 03:51

"Buy the RV.............. We start tomorrow..............!!"

/CJ

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

JJay - 6-3-2017 at 04:52

The problem with using an RV is expense... while I could probably rig up some sort of fume hood, there would undoubtedly be corrosive vapors that would lead to rust. I'd need a vehicle that I was willing to use as a consumable lab item, and that is too expensive.

Also, I think for proper ventilation, I would need to run an exhaust hose to a distance of 20 or so feet away, and that would be conspicuous. You can't just do it in a Walmart parking lot.

I guess people who are making industrial quantities of methamphetamine don't have to worry about expense or destroying the vehicle, but I do.

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

WGTR - 6-3-2017 at 05:02

I think this is some sort of coming of age adventure, and that part I can totally relate to. I went on some of those in my early 20's. I can't say I hung out with the hippies and made bromine, though. Maybe you'll have an interesting story to tell when you're done!

Magpie - 6-3-2017 at 11:05

I also can sympathize. Before I built my fume hood and acquired a circulating cooling water source I had bought a very nice Kontes ground glass joint organic kit, like those used in schools. I was dying to use it so set up a retort/condenser in my kitchen while the wife was away and made benzene from benzoic acid/NaOH.

But I have to say that your proposal is an order of magnitude more strange (reckless) than my kitchen chemistry. If anyone sees you doing it things could get ugly fast. Nobody outside of this forum is going to understand. You will likely be accused of drug making or bomb making. Those are the only purposes the general public thinks an individual would have for chemistry.

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by Magpie]

JJay - 6-3-2017 at 12:03

I'm actually not that concerned about things getting ugly fast. I mean, seriously, they can't just arrest people on suspicion of doing chemistry, and I think most people I am likely to encounter out there just want to be left alone. Law enforcement is highly unlikely to present a nuisance, and it would take an extremely bold and opportunistic thief to try to rob me. If I get injured, there's cell phone service and probably people within a few hundred yards who would hear a cry for help.

If someone complains, they *do* have to do something about it, but that could be as simple as checking to see if I'm breaking any laws and telling me to move along. In the area I'm thinking of, by law I have to comply with a request to move along within two weeks' time. Littering and disposing of hazardous wastes is prohibited, and there are a few restrictions on hazardous materials, but they are clearly permitted. Digging deep holes is prohibited. Target shooting, 4-wheeled vehicles, fires, and cutting wood are permitted, but there's no game, and the particular spot I'm thinking of is inaccessible except by foot. The restrictions on hazardous substances are a bit vague, but clearly, they allow lead, gunpowder, gasoline and so forth, not to mention mercury and cyanide for gold refining... the only actual regulations I'm seeing on hazardous substances in the area apply to explosives.

[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]

MrHomeScientist - 7-3-2017 at 13:42

An alternative method that keeps fumes to a minimum is by using electrolysis, which I covered in a 2-part video. Here's part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKjyM2AkZSY

If you prefer reading, I got the procedure from woelen's site, here: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/OTC_bromine/...

It seems like you've done your research on regulations, but I have to agree: to a non-chemist hiker, stumbling upon someone with full distillation apparatus filled with evil-looking red gas in the middle of the woods has to look extremely suspicious. Most people would not want to get anywhere near that to ask what you were doing, and may go straight to the police. It's up to you to weigh the risks and benefits: How dire is your need for bromine, and what possible consequences are you willing to accept to get it?

JJay - 7-3-2017 at 14:11

I have done the same thing but with sulfuric acid and distillation. I have a video of it here somewhere. (I should really upload some of my videos....)

I am pretty sure that Cody of Cody's Lab has shot at least a few videos on public land, although I am not so sure that any of those involved anything like a distillation apparatus....

So anyway, I wonder if you can fit half inch electrical conduit into a regular lab clamp.

[Edited on 7-3-2017 by JJay]

macckone - 7-3-2017 at 23:04

Jjay, have you ever heard of beating the charge but not the ride?
And yes fire code violations can be a civil offense, or a misdemeanor or even a felony. And guess who doesn't get to choose which one you can get charged with. Portable labs is considered probable cause to arrest you, then they have 72 hours to charge or release you. And the slightest charge is sufficient to hold you. White powdery substance? Cheap drug test says cocaine, might be sugar from a powdered donut. Yes, this actually happened to someone. I have gotten the raw end of the fire code violation charge. It was dropped but still no fun and cost a lot for the lawyer and bail. And if you use a public defender, it doesn't matter what you were doing, plan on a plea bargain.

j_sum1 - 8-3-2017 at 01:42

Aah. Gotta love the US legal system. Guilty until proven guilty,

JJay - 8-3-2017 at 03:20

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Jjay, have you ever heard of beating the charge but not the ride?
And yes fire code violations can be a civil offense, or a misdemeanor or even a felony. And guess who doesn't get to choose which one you can get charged with. Portable labs is considered probable cause to arrest you, then they have 72 hours to charge or release you. And the slightest charge is sufficient to hold you. White powdery substance? Cheap drug test says cocaine, might be sugar from a powdered donut. Yes, this actually happened to someone. I have gotten the raw end of the fire code violation charge. It was dropped but still no fun and cost a lot for the lawyer and bail. And if you use a public defender, it doesn't matter what you were doing, plan on a plea bargain.

I don't know what kind of fire code regulations you are talking about, but if you were committing arson, obstructing a means of escape, and/or setting off fire alarms for no reason, you should have expected to be justly punished. If you never upgraded the paneling in your attic to meet current safety standards, the worst thing the fire chief can do is look in your general direction and shake his head.

I hardly think your comment on public defenders is worthy of refutation... are you some kind of petty violator?

A portable lab is not probable cause. In any event, it's not like I won't be keeping a lab notebook.

I discovered yesterday that half inch conduit fits into standard lab clamps. It's a pretty tight fit, but I think I can assembly a lightweight and portable bench that way.

macckone - 8-3-2017 at 06:44

Jjay, no the charge was for storing a flammable liquid in a glass container over 500ml.
It was not properly stored in a fire safe flammable cabinet.
It was malicious prosecution because they were looking for a
Meth lab and found no meth lab, no evidence of a meth lab,
No precursors and 1L of acetone in a glass bottle was what they
Could charge me with. I wasn't even doing organic chemistry.
And had the lab notebook to prove it. But until I got a real
Lawyer the PD was trying to get me to plea to 5 years.

I don't fault the police in general but this was oh has glass beakers
He must be bad idiocy. Yes a lawyer can get you off but that
Doesn't mean you should make it easy for them to convince a
Jury you are breaking the law. Using an rv makes it harder to
Justify a search as once it leaves a public road, it is considered a 'home'
And has higher burden to search.

As for fire codes, everyone on this forum is probably violating at least
One item. There may be exceptions but I know I currently have a
Bookshelf that narrows the hallway below the required 36 inches.
And yes I have a business license so they could gig me for that.

JJay - 8-3-2017 at 08:28

I don't believe this story. Do you realize how many people have cans of gasoline in their garages? Not to mention stuff like olive oil.

Also, the burden of proof required for searching an RV is not raised due to its status as a domicile. The burden of proof is lower on public roads under current case law, but if you take your car off of public roads, it can't be searched without a warrant. There are some laws that treat domiciles differently, but outside of Hollywood, that isn't one of them.

I'm not planning on running into any law enforcement and getting into a big debate about the Fourth Amendment, but I'm not planning on breaking any laws either.

This doesn't apply to amateurs or people outside of a workplace, and most of it doesn't apply to chemists, but if you're a hairdresser, for example, you can't have a glass bottle larger than 500 mL containing acetone sitting on the shelf for more than 30 days. You also can't leave an empty acetone bottle of more than 500 mL size sitting on the shelf for more than 30 days (seriously): https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=...

Note that chemists are given an exemption under 1910.106(d)(2)(iii)(a)(2) and can completely ignore that entire paragraph if they choose under the provisions of 1910.106(d)(1)(ii)(a).

[Edited on 8-3-2017 by JJay]

JJay

Sulaiman - 8-3-2017 at 10:10

Do not confuse legallity with real life;
unless you can imagine suing for a significant sum,
the problems that 'law enforcement' can cause may have disproportionate effects on your life.

frankly, if I saw an 'amateur chemist' in the woods,
I would be more than a little suspicious.

OTOH, a homeless person in the woods may benefit from learning the ancient and venerable art of distillation,
and would possibly be grateful enough to the person that helped him achieve greater self-esteem,
to warn of potential nuisances ?

but do not mention to him or his associates, all of whom live on stream water,
and have been consuming a very local product :

Quote: Originally posted by JJay

I actually don't think disposing of bromine waste in a stream would be so bad ...

[Edited on 8-3-2017 by Sulaiman]

JJay - 8-3-2017 at 10:31

Right... it's really not the same sort of thing at all as mercury or even toluene, but disposing of trace halogens and nontoxic sulfate salts in natural bodies of water would be likely to generate ire among some people, even if the waters are contaminated, which they are.

I'd plan to conceal exactly what I will be doing from nearby campers, mainly because they'd probably expect me to supply drugs or distill some beverages, and some of them are likely extremely dangerous people. Most people out there don't want any problems, but there do exist people who would kill for a glass distillation apparatus....

[Edited on 8-3-2017 by JJay]

JJay - 8-3-2017 at 10:37

Oh, and there do actually exist standards for disposing of halogens directly into natural bodies of water. I'm not completely sure what would apply here, but see this one, for example: http://www.deq.state.or.us/wq/pubs/bmps/chlorwaterdisp.pdf

The logic is something like this. Bear in mind that this was produced by a government office:

Step 1. Are you dumping less than 500 gallons of halogenated waste (at a time)?

No: Go to step 2.
Yes: Dump it.

[Edited on 8-3-2017 by JJay]

macckone - 9-3-2017 at 20:11

That is 500gal or less of 4mg/l.
And it only applies to chlorine and requires
Attempting to find other methods first.

JJay - 9-3-2017 at 21:34

Out of concern for those who may be upset about relatively innocuous wastes left over from some process getting dumped into a ditch in some godforsaken place, I have decided not to dispose of any chemical wastes in the woods, even if neutralized. I am quite sure that it is possible to do so (with some wastes) in a manner that has zero negative impact, but I have to carry everything to the site, so it's no big deal to take everything away from it.

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by JJay]

symboom - 10-3-2017 at 00:49

Pack up what one brings in
What conservationist say
The leave no trace motto

Anyways not wanting this to become political
bring what you need perform the experiments neutralize the waste then pack it away in a sealed back when you leave

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by symboom]

Sulaiman - 10-3-2017 at 02:55

Just one more on waste;
carrying into the woods a waste container labeled 'WASTE', in large, friendly letters, indicates intent ... worst case.

EDIT

going to the woods : empty = good, not empty = bad
leaving the woods : empty = bad, not empty = good

appear to be 'good' at all times

Afterthought:
maybe doing chemistry in the woods,
you would not be percieved as a threat by accidental onlookers
if you wear a super-hero costume ?

We can help to design it !

O.K. guys ... try to get the image of super - JJ - man out of your heads

But if ever you need an emergency bromination,
turn on the searchlight

SM.jpg - 3kB

Sorry JJay - I just could not get it out of my head

I grew up on stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw

P.S. provided that you have access to emergency repairs
an off-road bicycle may be a good investment for this project ?

Also, as I'm sure you know, in a fire situation, organobromine compounds are retardants;
so don't inhale

And, it was rumoured that bromide^- (Greek βρῶμος "stench") was used to reduce sexual desires in soldiers,
so avoid the bromine fumes
as you may not be attracted to women
and they certainly will not be attracted to you

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by Sulaiman]

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by Sulaiman]

WGTR - 10-3-2017 at 11:00

I was looking through the SM library earlier, and noticed Max Gergel's book Excuse Me Sir, Would You Like to Buy a Kilo of Isopropyl Bromide? . That got me to thinking, that if you go through with this idea, you should write a book. You could entitle it

Hey Hobo, Wanna Make Bromine?

Chemistry Adventures in the Public Lands of Rural America

Containing over 100 beautifully illustrated plates of brominations in natural settings

Remember, you heard the idea from me first. Have fun.

JJay - 10-3-2017 at 11:54

Imagine a cluster of quaint porcelain crucibles oxidizing some chrome oxide in the campfire, backed by the majestic Rocky mountains.

Oh, and check out these natural pools of sulfuric acid:

[Edited on 10-3-2017 by JJay]

JJay - 10-3-2017 at 18:41

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman

so avoid the bromine fumes
as you may not be attracted to women
and they certainly will not be attracted to you

I beg to differ. There are few things more sexy than a bromine distillation. If you want to lose the ladies, try making some chloroform.

symboom - 12-3-2017 at 03:27

I downloaded the picture plante1999 had when he had a website as inspiration of a nice portable lab.

Screenshot_2017-03-12-04-26-05.png - 1.1MB

And a picture of the golden book of chemistry

Screenshot_2017-03-01-01-29-08.png - 1.1MB

[Edited on 12-3-2017 by symboom]

unionised - 12-3-2017 at 05:40

If I was going to make bromine, I'd want to be somewhere that help was at hand if I needed it.

JJay - 13-3-2017 at 19:41

Sulaiman - 14-3-2017 at 01:56

To accessorise ... PM Zephyr

JJay - 17-4-2017 at 21:27

Against all sound wisdom, today I went looking for a good spot to distill some nitric acid. I found this chunk of pristine wilderness nearby (ok, actually this is the middle of an island on a highway), and it actually has power outlets. I'm not really sure who they belong to, though, and I certainly wouldn't want to be charged with stealing electricity or anything else stupid, and there is a bit too much flammable brush for my tastes (though fires would be confined to the island), so I'm not too sure about this location, although the power outlets make it awfully tempting.

I found another spot nearby on the edge of some public lands that looked decent and discovered an active homeless camp in it with a primitive windbreak built out of cardboard and spruce branches. The homeless individual wasn't... there... but the bedding looked clean and there were fresh groceries. I left the camp unmolested and proceeded to trek through a swamp to reach a grove of trees in the center. Here I found some good spots that were devoid of signs of homeless people and actually had very few signs of hikers; I am sure if I dress like a hiker and throw up a lean-to to cover whatever apparatus I am using there, no one will mind or ask any questions, and probably no one will even notice that I am in the area.

The only downsides of this new location are that I now have pine needles coming out of every nook and cranny in every article of clothing, not to mention in my hair, behind my ears and so forth. And I should really wear boots next time I cross the swamp. Also, it will probably be swarming with mosquitos soon. But I think it will be a fine place to distill some nitric acid; I'm unlikely to be bothered there, and if I am, I won't be breaking any laws.

[Edited on 18-4-2017 by JJay]

JJay - 30-4-2017 at 21:17

I think I'm just about ready to make some nitric acid.