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JJay
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Portable Lab
I have decided I would like to make some more bromine and do some other fairly dangerous syntheses. For safety reasons, I'd like to do this outside,
but in my current location, that probably isn't a good idea though it is technically legal. My plan is to head out someplace remote and then pack the
lab up a power line trail along the public right-of-way to a reasonably secluded location and set up the lab on public lands. According to the
research I've done, this is legal as long as the lab is not left in place for more than two weeks at a time, and I'd probably be leaving it in place
for a couple of hours, tops.
I figure I'll need a large backpack and some tarps, a blanket for wrapping the glassware, a propane stove for heating a water bath, bottles for
holding various chemicals (sulfuric acid, hydrogen peroxide, sodium bromide, and of course a good bottle for holding bromine), a couple gallons of
water, a lawn tractor battery and inverter, a small bucket, and a small hydroponics pump. If I decide to make aluminum bromide this way, I'll probably
also need some table salt or other suitable high-temperature bath material.
I'm reasonably strong, but I don't think I would enjoy carrying more than 25 kilograms through the woods for a long distance. The major drawbacks I
can see of doing things this way are that I can only carry limited quantities of water, and I don't think I can carry sufficient electrical power for
heating or stirring for long periods of time. So heating will need to be by flame. I think I can dispose of most of the wastes in a stream or river,
but I'd have to pack the wastes out if working with environmental toxins.
The major flaw in this idea, as I see it, is that I still haven't decided what I'm going to use as a bench... I definitely am not relishing the idea
of balancing lab stands on sticks, stones and piles of dirt or clamping the apparatus to a tree. The bench needs to be something lightweight and
collapsible yet sturdy.
Any ideas?
[Edited on 5-3-2017 by JJay]
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Elemental Phosphorus
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Maybe put all your equipment into a plywood crate with wheels, set up equipment on top. Sort of like a "chuck box" with one extra thick side for
setting up on. Also, disposing of bromine waste in a stream sound like a bad idea, ecspecially on public property. If you will be roughly hauling
reagent bottles around, try getting the plastic-coated ones. Dr. Bob sells them. Also consider some bicarbonate and a decent first aid kit.
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JJay
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I won't be able to use wheels where I'm headed.
I actually don't think disposing of bromine waste in a stream would be so bad if it were made with sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. There are
things I wouldn't put in a stream... chromium compounds, heavy metals, solvents, etc... but bromide salts are extremely widespread in nature.
I guess I could pack out the wastes. I'm doing some reading on how to dispose of dish water while camping, and it is recommended to do so 200 feet
from a body of water. That seems a bit environmentally paranoid to me, but I guess that on a large scale or if everyone were dumping bromine waste
into streams, there would be a problem.
I have plastic-coated reagent bottles. Also, I'll be taking along some sodium thiosulfate and sodium carbonate.
[Edited on 5-3-2017 by JJay]
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Elemental Phosphorus
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Maybe have a friend help carry the container then. When I go camping we have crates with things like cooking utensils, soap, firestarters, matches,
etc. but you will only be out for a few hours so substitute those items for chemicals, stoves, etc. Having someone else is always advantageous when
out in the woods and to help you if something goes wrong with dangerous chemicals.
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JJay
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Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  | | Maybe have a friend help carry the container then. When I go camping we have crates with things like cooking utensils, soap, firestarters, matches,
etc. but you will only be out for a few hours so substitute those items for chemicals, stoves, etc. Having someone else is always advantageous when
out in the woods and to help you if something goes wrong with dangerous chemicals. |
Carrying a heavy crate into the woods is not really an option; while it might be possible to carry one for a couple of hundred yards or so, it's not a
reasonable idea if going even a few miles.
Taking someone along is probably not a bad idea. I still have no idea what to use as a bench....
[Edited on 5-3-2017 by JJay]
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WGTR
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| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | Taking someone along is probably not a bad idea. I still have no idea what to use as a bench.... |
"Dang it! Stop wiggling around! How can I balance this graduated cylinder on your back if you won't act like a proper lab bench! I only dripped a
little sulfuric on you once!"
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Elemental Phosphorus
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| Quote: Originally posted by WGTR | | Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | Taking someone along is probably not a bad idea. I still have no idea what to use as a bench.... |
"Dang it! Stop wiggling around! How can I balance this graduated cylinder on your back if you won't act like a proper lab bench! I only dripped a
little sulfuric on you once!" |
There's an idea! Use another person as a bench. Actually though, you could
try and set up a foldable table, then come back with supplies later.
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JJay
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I might be able to fit one of these into a duffle bag, but it's definitely bulkier than ideal, not to mention flammable:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/34-Square-Fold-in-Half-Table-Blac...
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WGTR
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If you're intent on doing this, then IIWM (If It Were Me) my first thought would be to weld up some clever little cabinet that's small enough to fit
into your pack (but then again, maybe I'm just nuts). Inside, everything would be held in place exactly where it needs to be to perform whatever
reaction was intended, needing only to have the heat cranked up at your destination to let 'er rip. Of course, things would need to be shock-mounted
to withstand the vibration of travel. It might require miniature or custom glassware, and the preparation would be a project in and of itself.
I'd feel personally uncomfortable going off alone in the middle of nowhere to do some dangerous procedure if I'd never done it before (and even
then...). In any case I'd rather start by doing a lengthily practice run with some harmless chemicals, to (hopefully) identify potential disasters or
inconveniences that could occur with a more demanding synthesis. You also might not be as alone as you think you'd be...you'd have to spend some time
out there to get a feel for it.
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j_sum1
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This whole thing seems a bit nuts to me.
I'd be thinking of somewhere that I could drive to -- an old quarry, a patch of desert, the corner of a mate's farm or something. I understand the
need to do these kind of things outdoors and away from prying eyes. But trekking for miles into the woods seems odd.
And if you are going to go to all the effort to build a portable rig, why not rather invest the time, money and effort into building a fume hood.
Furthermore, for Br2, there are measures you can take with traps and wash solutions that can keep the release of vapour right down. You should look
at what UC235 did in his garage without a fume hood. Copy that good practice. It seems to me that this venture is mostly an invitation for all kinds
of things to go wrong: including but not limited to, unforeseen spills and breakages, misunderstanding by someone who happens to witness what you are
doing, mishaps resulting from using untested equipment, unfamiliar procedures and not having your normal lab resources to fix things up.
See if you can arrive at a setup with zero chance of brominating a squirrel.
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by j_sum1]
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wg48
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I thought it was crazy too especially as initially I thought he was going lay a power cable from his house to the location LOL
If a cop spots him he will probably be thrown in jail as a suspected cook
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JJay
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*yawn*
First off, in this country, a cop can't just throw you in jail on suspicion. But I don't really want them showing up outside my residence expressing
their disapproval. It may be legal to distill bromine in a business district in front of an apartment complex, but that doesn't mean they are going to
like the idea.
Obviously I'd be setting up some sort of screen so random hikers think I'm just out camping or something. What's crazy about doing chemical reactions
outside away from people and buildings, exactly?
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]
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symboom
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This is a great idea a lot of times remote locations are better the user plante1999 I saw a picture of his portable lab he has everything in a suit
case. Although going into the woods with a suit case would look odd.
I guess using coat hangers as lab apparatus such as the one in the golden book of experiments has some great illustrations. The use of glass tubing
and test tube should help. As for heat alcohol and propane mini stoves should be enough. a platform nailed and chained to a tree for example could be
of use or a board between two trees.
That is what could be done could be more hassle than its worth
As for worying about bromine gasses sodium hydroxide as a great gas scubber for a lot of gasses such as chlorine bromine and sulfur dioxide
As for the one that doesnt work with sodium hydroxide ammonia gas can be scrubed with magnesium sulfate
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by symboom]
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JJay
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I think scrubbers are a good idea, but they aren't foolproof. UC235 may have been able to evacuate his garage if an accident happened, but I can't
just run to the the neighbors and be like, "Oh hi, sorry to bother you, but I spilled some bromine, and with the way the wind is blowing, there's a
good chance that your place will be filled with toxic fumes. Would you mind clearing out for a few hours?" Admittedly, this is a worst case scenario,
but I'm not really comfortable with the idea that all that stands between me and getting evicted is a few mm of borosilicate glass.
(Oh and while I suppose I could just cobble together some sort of fume hood in my van, I would actually feel safer just doing things outside.)
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]
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dactyl
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Depending on the spectrum of possible craziness, in some areas like say Ohio you might be looking at two charges:
2909.07 Criminal mischief. most specifically
A(1)(a)(2)in part 2) With purpose to interfere with the use or enjoyment of property of another, employ a tear gas device, stink bomb, smoke
generator, or other device releasing a substance that is harmful or offensive to persons exposed or that tends to cause public alarm;
and
2909.06
possibly in relation to(2) Recklessly, by means of fire, explosion, flood, poison gas, poison, radioactive material, caustic or corrosive material, or
other inherently dangerous agency or substance.
Definitions of reckless and physical harm to property ( that last definition could be argued to be somewhat broad, probably due to "in any degree")
are in General Provisions. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901
But I admit chances of getting caught with these charges for making bromine (or any thing really) are probably lower than charges for instance, say,
statutory rape in Ohio which based on my perusual of county prosecutor websites, online newspapers, and online court docket searches and appeal
decisions for several years is infrequently charged ( like one county does 2 prosecutions per year).
Then again, bromine can be really smelly to some sensitive people and if one is caught making bromine thy're looking at a theoretically possible 2
yr. mandatory sentence because manufacture means "engage in any part of the production of a drug"; bromine is known to have some utility in drug
production.(http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2925.01 http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2925.041v1
On the bench topic, this might be easier to carry in a duffel bag if it should weigh less (wt of this is 15.4 lbs). https://www.amazon.com/Cosco-Resin-Folding-Table-Black/dp/B0... I couldn't find the weight of the product of the Walmart link.
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by dactyl]
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JJay
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Oh, around here they prosecute statutory rape quite frequently, but a charge of criminal mischief requires actual damage to property and doesn't stick
without a guilty plea. But still, I'd rather not deal with the police over bromine (or anything else).
I'm not sure if that tabletop folds. I've seen lightweight aluminum tables that are intended for camping (which would be harder to set on fire), but
they are too small....
Oh and while bromine certainly *can* be used to make drugs, I think that's actually pretty uncommon, and they would certainly not be able to prove
that it is being used to make any sort of drug.
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]
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dactyl
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The aluminum table as we know would also making a nice flashing table if bromine fell on it which would be cool to watch but a pain to dismantle.
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JJay
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| Quote: Originally posted by dactyl | | The aluminum table as we know would also making a nice flashing table if bromine fell on it which would be cool to watch but a pain to dismantle. |
True... the resin top would hold up better to corrosive substances....
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j_sum1
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| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | *yawn*
First off, in this country, a cop can't just throw you in jail on suspicion. But I don't really want them showing up outside my residence expressing
their disapproval. It may be legal to distill bromine in a business district in front of an apartment complex, but that doesn't mean they are going to
like the idea.
Obviously I'd be setting up some sort of screen so random hikers think I'm just out camping or something. What's crazy about doing chemical reactions
outside away from people and buildings, exactly?
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay] |
Ok I admit that part of my reaction might be one of perception. Where I come from, a 1 mile walk into the woods has you in effectively a wilderness
area. The culture is pack in, pack out and leave no trace. Therefore you don't just consider environmental damage. You also consider any kind of
impact that you might have. Glass for example is to be avoided since a breakage will be awkward to clean up.
With that in mind, if I was considering an outdoor lab i would be looking for a road-end or off-road track or some other kind of seldom accessed place
that I could drive to. It would have the positive spin off of meaning I could carry everything I needed easily including table or bench if required.
But I am still perplexed. Take the issue of condensing your bromine. You are away from piped water that you can feed through your condenser. Sure
you could use a bucket and pump circulator but then you also need a power supply. And if something unexpected happens you probably want some ice to
throw into the bucket. This all just adds to the complexities of the procedure. And you want some clean up gear in case you accidentally knock the
thing over. (It happens.) All this gear adds up.
Given that Br2 can be isolated safely without release of fumes, I just think that this is a step in the wrong direction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL9ehxTaYRs
I can see a case for a portable lab under some circumstances and I am not against the idea on philosophical grounds. But In this particular
circumstance I just don't see that it makes good sense.
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JJay
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I respectfully completely disagree with you on this. I think the perception that bromine can be isolated safely without release of fumes is simply
wrong. You'll note that UC235 mentions early on in the video that he had a significant accident involving bromine. While this would certainly be a
serious problem in a garage, it would be an outright disaster in an apartment building; it's a risk that isn't even worth considering.
Ideally, the culture here would be pack in, pack out, leave no trace, but in reality, it's more like pack in, find a lot of garbage and abandoned
homeless camps, pack out, and really, you'd probably actually just be disinfecting someone else's germs if you dump some small amounts of halogens in
the water, but I can see how that might not be the best idea. I mean, really, you're not even supposed to dump your canteen out in a stream. So ok,
packing out the waste is fine.
I don't think I'd need to dump ice in the bucket, and even if I did, there's a foot and a half of snow on the ground, and those mountain streams
aren't exactly toasty warm. I just don't want to clean mud out of my pump and condensers.
Clean-up gear in this case would probably consist of some sodium thiosulfate, a plastic bag, and rubber gloves.
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j_sum1
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Ok. I thought it was worth raising the point anyway. (And I didn't think of snow on the ground either. Its is sweltering here.)
Exactly how did you think you would go about setting up the condenser? It sounds like a simple glass tube and snow pack might work.
It is clear that you have a location in mind that you think is workable. Have you exhausted other possibilities that are drive-to and don't involve
carrying the gear?
Brominating squirrels did appeal to my bent humour in any case.
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JJay
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I've considered some drive-to locations, but they would necessarily involve packing the lab away from crowds. The place I have in mind is not exactly
pristine wilderness. I went and checked it out a few days ago and found it surrounded by abandoned homeless camps, as well as an active one, complete
with a friendly homeless guy who looked like he hadn't showered in at least a week. His camp was pretty well hidden; even with his campfire I wouldn't
have seen it, but the tracks to it were a dead giveaway.
I'd use a lawn tractor battery with an inverter and aquarium pump. A glass tube packed with snow might work, but then again, bromine is pretty
volatile, so I'd want to use a Graham condenser. Also, by running water through the condenser, there's less risk of bromine freezing in it. I think
that's unlikely to happen, but I certainly wouldn't want to have to clear frozen bromine out of a condenser....
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macckone
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To get arrested the cop only has to have a probable cause.
Some guy doing chemistry in the woods is enough to hold
up in court. You will be sitting in the jail until they run the
samples and determine you were not doing anything illegal.
And they will still try to make a case. If nothing else they
will try to get you on some kind of public hazard charge.
These are usually reserved for illegal storage of flammable
liquids but would probably apply in these situations as the
fire code is pretty complex and violating it can range from a
misdemeanor to a serious felony. Best to do chemistry
inside of a building or in a fenced yard.
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JJay
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Violating the fire code most places doesn't usually even result in a fine, but if you do, it does major damage to your property resale values and can
make your insurance go up. It's not a crime; it is a civil offense. If you refuse to comply and they press the issue, they have sanctions available
(which can include things like leins and condemning the property), but there is no possible way to enforce against 90% of violations and enforcement
authorities are rarely aware of specific violations. Do you have any idea how common code violations are??
People routinely get away with code violations, especially in their own homes; code violations are just distasteful.
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JJay
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Also, they can't just arrest you for doing chemistry, and they can't hold you in jail while they search for probable cause in any common law
jurisdiction. Do you know what a writ of habeas corpus is?
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]
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