Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Theoretical chemistry how to obtain sulfuric acid from raw natural sources

Theoretical chemistry how to obtain sulfuric acid from raw natural sources

Bobmaccian - 20-10-2016 at 20:11

Maroboduus - 20-10-2016 at 20:22

1: Dig up some Sulphur
2: Dig up, or extract from natural sources, some nitrate salts
3: Mix them (nitrates in excess to oxidize the SO2 produced),and burn in closed container with water to absorb the fumes
4:????
5: PROFIT!

Bobmaccian - 20-10-2016 at 20:30

I was considering using gypsum caso4 separating it from the calcium by heating it until it releases the so4 gas and combining the gas with hydrogen gas electrically to form sulfuric acid. Would it work and if not why not would it need some type of catalyst or reagent to make it work that would be normally or naturally obtainable

j_sum1 - 20-10-2016 at 20:43

Quote: Originally posted by Bobmaccian

I was considering using gypsum caso4 separating it from the calcium by heating it until it releases the so4 gas and combining the gas with hydrogen gas electrically to form sulfuric acid. Would it work and if not why not would it need some type of catalyst or reagent to make it work that would be normally or naturally obtainable

There is no SO4 gas.
It is a good question but I recommend you doing some elementary research so that you fully appreciate the answers given. There is more than one approach. None of them are super trivial.

macckone - 20-10-2016 at 20:55

At the temperature required SO₃ breaks down. In fact a carbon source is normally added which facilitates this to increase sulfur dioxide production. This is a very high temp reaction.

phlogiston - 21-10-2016 at 05:42

There are natural (volcanic) lakes that consist of surprisingly concentrated sulfuric acid.

You may also want to consider pyrite as a starting point rather than gypsum.

Dwarvensilver - 21-10-2016 at 20:50

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

There are natural (volcanic) lakes that consist of surprisingly concentrated sulfuric acid.

You may also want to consider pyrite as a starting point rather than gypsum.

Yup, in a process at work we pressure oxidize sulfide concentrates.
If there is a lot of pyrite it makes sulfuric acid which we then have to neutralize the excess with limestone flour. This of course makes gypsum and that becomes a pain in the ass.
[img]

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Of course this pic is from sitting for a couple months with no operation to get those crystals on the heating coils

[Edited on 2016-10-22 by Dwarvensilver]

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 01:43

The reason i thoght of this is because in apocalyptic times there is a main source of. Sulfur bearing product wallboard from collapsed apts and homes

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 02:08

But your right there may not be enough sulfur to harvest out of this process

ficolas - 22-10-2016 at 02:10

In an apocaliptic time, there is a nice source of sulphur: gardening stores

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 02:11

I probably would hunt for extinct volcanoes near my home in southern new mexico

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 02:14

If the gardening stores are not cleaned out allready whi h usually happens within the first day to a week of marauders looking for gunpowder ingredients

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 02:18

Not all preppers are total idiots or people who live off the grid

wg48 - 22-10-2016 at 03:43

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

There are natural (volcanic) lakes that consist of surprisingly concentrated sulfuric acid.

Dilute acid (20%) seems plausible but I would be very surprised if it was anywhere near concentrated acid (98%).

Do you have a reference for it?

crystal grower - 22-10-2016 at 04:45

Sorry Bob, but all those things about preppers just make me laugh...
If an apocalypse occurs, for what on the earth would you need sulfuric acid

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 13:56

Homemade battery's smokeless powder for cartridge cases chemicals used to manufacture smokeless powder like diethel ether, nitric acid regular blackpowder would ruin automatic type fire arms so nitrocellulose would need to be made and stabilized with diethel ether thats made from sulfuric acid

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 14:05

stabilized nitrocellulose has a name its technical name is known as Poudre b and theres another cousin to it as well ammonpulver invented by Hiram maxim in 1888

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 14:06

both of which require sulfuric acid to manufacture

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 14:13

yes there are battery acid from cars can also be obtained from auto supply stores if im not once again beaten to the punch

j_sum1 - 22-10-2016 at 14:17

IMO the simplest synth of sulfuric acid is electrolysis of copper sulfate (or another sulfate salt. You can make MnSO4 by bubbling SO2 from burning sulfur through a slurry made from battery innards.)

You need a couple of volts power supply, a piece of lead for an anode, copper wire for cathode, a jam jar to hold it in and in my experience about 24h per 50g batch of copper sulfate. Boil down until white fumes appear amd you have about 70% although you can concentrate further.

I have had perfectly clear batches before but usually there is a faint green from residual Cu after boiling down.

[edit]
BTW what's with the long string of sequential posts? There is an edit button should you need it.

[Edited on 22-10-2016 by j_sum1]

Bobmaccian - 22-10-2016 at 14:17

i think my best bet would ask this question to a geologist on where to look for natural sulfur deposits are and what to look for

j_sum1 - 22-10-2016 at 14:23

OTC sulfur is not going away any time soon. There are vast stockpiles of the stuff from crude oil and gas refining. It has horticultural and agricultural applications. And if you live in a geologically active area, look for the yellow stuff on the ground.

Maroboduus - 22-10-2016 at 14:41

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

IMO the simplest synth of sulfuric acid is electrolysis of copper sulfate (or another sulfate salt. You can make MnSO4 by bubbling SO2 from burning sulfur through a slurry made from battery innards.)

You need a couple of volts power supply, a piece of lead for an anode, copper wire for cathode, a jam jar to hold it in and in my experience about 24h per 50g batch of copper sulfate. Boil down until white fumes appear amd you have about 70% although you can concentrate further.

I have had perfectly clear batches before but usually there is a faint green from residual Cu after boiling down.

[edit]
BTW what's with the long string of sequential posts? There is an edit button should you need it.

[Edited on 22-10-2016 by j_sum1]

Cool. Do you think that'd work with ammonium or magnesium sulphate if you used a divided cell with a salt bridge? I assume these wouldn't work in a single cell. I can buy H2SO4, but it's nice to have contingency plans.
(not for the apocalypse, just for changes in commercial availability)

EDIT: Bobmccain, don't forget pyrites. They're easy to find out west as well.

[Edited on 22-10-2016 by Maroboduus]

j_sum1 - 22-10-2016 at 15:35

The question is really one of what happens at the cathode. Cu deposits in nice dendrites. Mn forms a pile of powdered MnO2 (which has its own uses.) Zinc would plate out if you had access to zinc sulfate. Mg you might be able to work with in a divided cell but I have no experience. I dunno about ammonium.

I once toyed with the idea of electrolysing MnSO4 and then recycling the MnO2 produced. On paper it seemed like a tidy idea. I could begin with battery paste MnO2 (purified of course) and bubble SO2 from burning sulfur to create the sulfate. Electrolyse. Rinse lather repeat. That way I would effectively have a route from elemental sulfur from the garden supply shop all the way to sulfuric acid using OTC items only and perpetually reusing the manganese dioxide as a kind of process catalyst.
The reality is that battery gunk is messy at the best of times and more so before the carbon and iron is gotten rid of. Burning sulfur has its own messiness issues. (I followed Nurdrage's procedure but cleaning all the glass afterwards is a pain and the tubing does not last long.) The reaction between MnO2 and SO2 is not particularly efficient and other products are possible. And by the time a slow electrolysis was completed and a long boil-down process was done, it just did not seem like it would be worth the hassle. It was then that I started buying H2SO4.

Here are three threads that discuss some novel methods for making dilute H2SO4. I have tried the oxalic acid / MgSO4 method which appears to work. But I did not analyse the product.
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=65...
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=63...
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=62...

There are plenty more with a short search (These are just some I participated in- I was looking for something I said.) And let's not forget the lead chamber process about which there is a long thread. (Attractive concept but problematic from an engineering standpoint and the normal headaches of high temperature closed systems.)

Maroboduus - 22-10-2016 at 16:16

Thanks, J_sum1.

Those threads really covers a lot of great routes to sulphuric acid. Even though I've got easy access to H2SO4, I'm going to try a few of those methods. They just sound cool to try out and easy to experiment with.