Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Borax and PVA

NEMO-Chemistry - 8-9-2016 at 14:53

I am trying out the polymer experiment with PVA glue and borax to make the poor mans 'flubber'.

I have u2ed aga to see if he would copy this and rack the product on his stretcher he made for the commercial stuff.

My question though is..

What else apart from Borax can i use with PVA to make a polymer? I am trying to see how it compares with polymers like the one they tried out on the rack.

The Borax/PVA experiment is common, but i wondered if any other polymers could be made with PVA?

aga - 8-9-2016 at 15:29

Erm, doesn't the 'P' part of PVA stand for polymer ?

Sure i'll copy your synth, when documented/posted and stretch it to bits.

With data.

Edit:

What kind of stretchy-snappy-o-meter owner wouldn't ?

[Edited on 8-9-2016 by aga]

j_sum1 - 8-9-2016 at 16:18

To answer your question NEMO, you need to know what is happening with the borax to form the cross-linking. In all honesty, I forget the details but it is googleable. There are undoubtedly plenty of other cross-linking agents but borax happens to be particularly accessible.

If you are trying to duplicate the experiment elsewhere in the world you need to be aware that not all PVA is the same. The composition -- and in particular the water content does vary a lot. The polymer chain length and the amount of branching present is also likely to be different. This makes duplication difficult -- unless you send aga some bottles of your reagents. And even then, it is 42°C in aga's shed and -3 in Scotland. Reproducibility is an issue.

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-9-2016 at 05:12

I was kind of interested in how the stuff compares with the other polymer he racked. So i figure for that any PVA will do as long as he uses the same brand each time.

When i get home i will dig up the info from the Royal society where i saw the experiment.

I have seen PVA described as Poly Vinyl Alcohol and Poly Vinyl Acrylate, so i am not too sure what it actually stands for!

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-9-2016 at 05:17

This is the first one

http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/resource/res00000756/pva-...

There is also one using PVA to make a harder polymer, i will track that down again.

From memory the RSC one is more of a slime than something to stretch. I will find the other one but it mostly comes down to how much Borax you add (up to a point), add too much and it breaks down again.

[Edited on 9-9-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

aga - 9-9-2016 at 12:15

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
mostly comes down to how much Borax you add (up to a point), add too much and it breaks down again.

Doesn't sound too hard to find out how much ... let's see ...

bits.JPG - 62kB

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-9-2016 at 12:16

A little bit left field but, having read a couple of papers it looks like various versions of PVA with formaldehyde and other additives have been used in medicine.

One use is for a temporary skin covering for compound fractures etc, the PVA is turned into a kind of foam.

Another use seems to be immobilizing yeast/microbes in waste water treatment. As it can be made into a very thin film this got me thinking, i wonder if a water proof version could be used as a Ion exchange membrane or a kind of 'salt bridge in a electrolysis cell?

NEMO-Chemistry - 9-9-2016 at 12:19

You have beaten me!! Off to the shops at 8:30am to grab some more PVA :D.

Slime is apparently 8% Borax, i will grab what info i can find tonight. I have also seen mention of curing with heat.

Can you link to the stuff you did with your stretchO meter? Turns out to be handy Gizmondo you made there.

aga - 9-9-2016 at 13:05

Percentages are a bit hard to calculate as this wood glue bottle just says 'Good for sticking any kind of wood, paper, cardboard etc. Do Not Eat' on it.

Edit:

Snappy Sugru thing :-
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=66382&...


[Edited on 9-9-2016 by aga]

aga - 9-9-2016 at 14:19

Hmm. Mabye Less is More after all ...

postborax.JPG - 68kB

Left to right we have PVA samples A B C D
14.3g, 17.6g, 18.8g, 15.4g wood glue respectively.
(the glue 'dollops' rather than pours)

All were diluted to 100g with distilled water, then mixed thoroughly.

A borax solution was made from 10g borax decahydrate made up to 100g with water.

This was stuck in a 650W microwave for 30 seconds as the borax did not want to dissolve. After heating it dissolved completely.

Sample A had 30g of the borax solution added, stirred vigorously.

Immediately on stopping stirring a precipitate formed.

Sample B had 20g, C had 10g and D had 5g of the borax solution and all were treated in the same way with a fresh disposable stirrer.

For good measure all samples were put in the microwave for 90 seconds and mixed again, then left to settle.

After decanting off the water, the samples were dumped onto aluminium foil.

Only samples C and D exhibit any cohesivity.
A and B are more like pastes.

Conclusion:-

Mess with it some more to see if it can be cross-linked enough to make it stretchy, probably bash it a bit to get more water out.

NEMO-Chemistry - 10-9-2016 at 01:56

I found PVA glue as a non brand bottle, off to town to look in builders merchants for larger amount of a branded one.

My thinking is the RSC mention 4% and 8% solutions (presumably of glue), a branded product 'might' have a MSDS so that 'might' tell me the %.

I will modify your experiment slightly, test tubes same length and same amount in each, glue unwatered first and time how long for it to exit an upturned tube.

I might also try and use a microwave to gently dry it a little, i dont have formaldehyde so cant try that yet.

Apart from that i will use same amounts as you did and also some with no water added.

I found several references to it stretched slowly, so i take it we just have to mess with amounts until we get it right :D.

Thanks for the 'RACK' thread, once i get something that resembles a rubber/polymer, i will know what shape to cut. I can get the rest of the stuff ready while i wait for the bus!!

NEMO-Chemistry - 10-9-2016 at 02:03

Havnt tracked it down yet but looks like there is some info in the Journal of chemical education.

Journal of Chemical Education, Jan. 1986, #63, pp. 57-60

I will see if i can find it on scihub.

Sci-Hub seems down for me, i will try again later!

Found the article reference though

10.1021/ed063p57

[Edited on 10-9-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Found a working server, the article dosnt say much more than is already known. Out of interest if i post any papers do i do it in the thread or in references?

[Edited on 10-9-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

NEMO-Chemistry - 10-9-2016 at 07:23

Should have checked first!! shop shuts at lunchtime on a Saturday! I will have to grab some Monday now :(. Gives me a chance to look into a couple of things i want to try out :D.

aga - 10-9-2016 at 09:00

Might not be a great result this here PVA + Borax.

This afternoon the precipitates are basically lumps of white rock, having sat out in 38+ C all day.

If the material needs the water, yet loses it, i doubt i'll be able to make any standard conditions under which to test it.

Hmm. Maybe it likes oil ...

NEMO-Chemistry - 10-9-2016 at 09:46

We might manage 3.8C here but i doubt its going to go past 5C this week lol.

As always there seems to be conflicting advice on how to prepare! Got some old glue from the back of the shed, not much in it so maybe worth spending my time reading up and getting the 'slope 'O' Meter built'.

aga - 10-9-2016 at 13:34

Just measure, mix and observe.

There isn't much more to it than that.

NEMO-Chemistry - 11-9-2016 at 15:04

I might have got it entirely wrong. I tried with a small amount of the white PVA and didnt get anything worth while.

reading up some more it looks like i should use the clear PVA glue like the elmers stuff. I am not positive but i think they are slightly different.

Anyway apparently in acid they fall apart and in alkali they dont, i will grab some on the way home tomorrow and get cracking on it.

if i get it working we hit another problem......Turns out it is meant to be a non Newtonian fluid, so if we stretch it slowly it will stretch and stretch and stretch. But try and stretch it quickly and it breaks.

So i will give it a go, but its likely not to work out how i was hoping.

wg48 - 11-9-2016 at 17:13

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
I might have got it entirely wrong. I tried with a small amount of the white PVA and didnt get anything worth while.

reading up some more it looks like i should use the clear PVA glue like the elmers stuff. I am not positive but i think they are slightly different.

Anyway apparently in acid they fall apart and in alkali they dont, i will grab some on the way home tomorrow and get cracking on it.

if i get it working we hit another problem......Turns out it is meant to be a non Newtonian fluid, so if we stretch it slowly it will stretch and stretch and stretch. But try and stretch it quickly and it breaks.

So i will give it a go, but its likely not to work out how i was hoping.


I think the white glue is an emulsion of polyvinyl acetate while the clear glue is a solution of polyvinyl alcohol. I would expect the borax to combine with the alcohol more easily than the acetate. Does the acetate work?

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-9-2016 at 03:17

Quote: Originally posted by wg48  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
I might have got it entirely wrong. I tried with a small amount of the white PVA and didnt get anything worth while.

reading up some more it looks like i should use the clear PVA glue like the elmers stuff. I am not positive but i think they are slightly different.

Anyway apparently in acid they fall apart and in alkali they dont, i will grab some on the way home tomorrow and get cracking on it.

if i get it working we hit another problem......Turns out it is meant to be a non Newtonian fluid, so if we stretch it slowly it will stretch and stretch and stretch. But try and stretch it quickly and it breaks.

So i will give it a go, but its likely not to work out how i was hoping.


I think the white glue is an emulsion of polyvinyl acetate while the clear glue is a solution of polyvinyl alcohol. I would expect the borax to combine with the alcohol more easily than the acetate. Does the acetate work?


The acetate does work 'i think', i didnt have enough to fully try it but one lot got close.

I think the acetate is alot more fussy about quantity of Borax than the alcohol. I will know later when i get home, i managed to grab a bottle at the start of lunch.

The confusion came from a number of web sites that stated both the clear and the white glue were the same thing, as you point out this isnt so.......

I found alot of reference to the clear stuff coming in 4% and 8% concentrations, but i think the acetate is different.

careysub - 12-9-2016 at 07:59

I have no experimental experience with slime production, so cannot say how well Elmer's Glue polyvinyl acetate white glue works with borax (if at all), but the literature seems to be clear that polyvinyl alcohol clear glue is required.

It is unfortunate that PVA is used indiscriminately for both polyvinyl acetate and polyvinyl alcohol, indeed I have run across articles that deal with both, but use the acronym without explanation making it unclear what they are saying.

And although polyvinyl alcohol adhesive is a real thing (used for document conservation use for example) it is scarce on the market, acetate white glues overwhelming predominate. I think Elmer's clear school glue may be polyvinyl alcohol, but their SDS does not say what is in it - just asserting that it is 100% "Non-hazardous substance" (Love that non-hazardous substance! Use it all the time!).

You can find real polyvinyl alcohol adhesive on Amazon by searching on that phrase, and there are many vendors of polyvinyl alcohol solution and powder on eBay (mostly marketed for slime use).

Here is the Journal of Chemical Education article about slime AND one for making the alcohol from the acetate by alkaline hydrolysis.



Attachment: casassa1986.pdf (3.3MB)
This file has been downloaded 857 times

Attachment: chen2006.pdf (87kB)
This file has been downloaded 391 times

[Edited on 12-9-2016 by careysub]

[Edited on 12-9-2016 by careysub]

wg48 - 12-9-2016 at 08:34

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
Quote: Originally posted by wg48  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
I might have got it entirely wrong. I tried with a small amount of the white PVA and didnt get anything worth while.

reading up some more it looks like i should use the clear PVA glue like the elmers stuff. I am not positive but i think they are slightly different.

Anyway apparently in acid they fall apart and in alkali they dont, i will grab some on the way home tomorrow and get cracking on it.

if i get it working we hit another problem......Turns out it is meant to be a non Newtonian fluid, so if we stretch it slowly it will stretch and stretch and stretch. But try and stretch it quickly and it breaks.

So i will give it a go, but its likely not to work out how i was hoping.


I think the white glue is an emulsion of polyvinyl acetate while the clear glue is a solution of polyvinyl alcohol. I would expect the borax to combine with the alcohol more easily than the acetate. Does the acetate work?


The acetate does work 'i think', i didnt have enough to fully try it but one lot got close.

I think the acetate is alot more fussy about quantity of Borax than the alcohol. I will know later when i get home, i managed to grab a bottle at the start of lunch.

The confusion came from a number of web sites that stated both the clear and the white glue were the same thing, as you point out this isnt so.......

I found alot of reference to the clear stuff coming in 4% and 8% concentrations, but i think the acetate is different.


Not the best source but wiki thinks they both work.
Apparently there are different grades of PVAl depending how much acetate is left in them. This suggests that there are also different grades of PVAc depending on the acetate content.

Perhaps borax is sufficiently alkaline to catalyze the replacement or hydrolysis of the acetate.

Of cause you can dry a sample of your PVA and weigh it before and after to determine its water content.

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-9-2016 at 08:35

Thanks for that, yes some of the sites are confusing. I will get some powder and make some, i also found a paper that says you can use acetate but it dosnt seem as straightforward.

Some sites just refer to white wood glue, this i have always taken to mean the Acetate and the clear glue to be the alcohol.

Acetate does link but it isnt what i am after by a long way!! Thanks for the links. Time to go spending on ebay :D.

careysub - 12-9-2016 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by wg48  
...
Not the best source but wiki thinks they both work.
Apparently there are different grades of PVAl depending how much acetate is left in them. This suggests that there are also different grades of PVAc depending on the acetate content.

Perhaps borax is sufficiently alkaline to catalyze the replacement or hydrolysis of the acetate.

Of cause you can dry a sample of your PVA and weigh it before and after to determine its water content.



Yes the presence of some alcohol in a white glue might account for its "sliming", and also perhaps the borax does do some hydrolysis also.

Perhaps someone can attempt a two-step process with hydrolysis with a strong alkali, followed by cross-linking with borax?

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-9-2016 at 09:31

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
Quote: Originally posted by wg48  
...
Not the best source but wiki thinks they both work.
Apparently there are different grades of PVAl depending how much acetate is left in them. This suggests that there are also different grades of PVAc depending on the acetate content.

Perhaps borax is sufficiently alkaline to catalyze the replacement or hydrolysis of the acetate.

Of cause you can dry a sample of your PVA and weigh it before and after to determine its water content.



Yes the presence of some alcohol in a white glue might account for its "sliming", and also perhaps the borax does do some hydrolysis also.

Perhaps someone can attempt a two-step process with hydrolysis with a strong alkali, followed by cross-linking with borax?


I will give it a go, I found some similar information on the glues containing different amounts of Acetates and alcohol.


Might get it working after all!

aga - 12-9-2016 at 09:58

What will 'working' be ?

A rubbery thing ?

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-9-2016 at 11:29

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
What will 'working' be ?

A rubbery thing ?


Original idea was i wanted a thin membrane, this isnt going to happen with PVA.

So plan B seeing as i have the glue is a rubbery thing and slime, not as dopey as it seems because Halloween isnt far off :/.

Seriously though what i wanted was a simple starting point for learning about polymers, i thought this would be ideal.......

aga - 12-9-2016 at 12:10

The 'usual' way is to find a publication that gets at least near what you want, then tweak it a little.

Cuts out all the 'i wonder if' stuff at the beginning.

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-9-2016 at 13:14

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
The 'usual' way is to find a publication that gets at least near what you want, then tweak it a little.

Cuts out all the 'i wonder if' stuff at the beginning.


I have been following some papers and some websites, the problem appears to be in the naming of PVA.

Now i am reading a few more and it looks like the white glue will work but requires a different amount of Borax and slightly different different conditions.

At the moment my best plan is to read more papers and delve a bit deeper, i dont assimilate the information very quickly as alot of it is new concepts for me.

I apologize for the delay but reading and then understanding what i have read takes me a little time.

Once i have found some information i can follow i will post up here, I did have a go tonight at trying a few things out, i got mixed results.

I am pretty sure the white Polyvinyl Acetate glue will work to some extent, i am also sure it can be modified (all from reading).

The question's are now

1) is it worth trying to get the white Acetate to work?

2) If i get the white Acetate to work will it give me results i am happy with?

The Answer to one is, probably worth a shot if only for the learning and understanding what i read and then putting into practice.

The answer to 2 is likely to be No.

Tomorrow i want to concentrate on getting some noob questions finished and read up some more. But i will be doing some more research on this polymer.

I kind of have an end goal, but i would rather see it through and find the answer by reading and experimenting, rather than just ask and get the answer.

Hopefully people will understand why sometimes reinventing the wheel helps you learn how a wheel works :D.


Edit

Just to make my life easier i will post up some of the papers i came accross and will work from.

The first details both slime (Alcohol) and Gluep (Acetate)



[Edited on 12-9-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Attachment: slimesandgluep.pdf (155kB)
This file has been downloaded 421 times

Not sure about this one, it might help with the Hydrolysis of the glue, a quick read makes me think i have to sit down and really read it properly.



[Edited on 12-9-2016 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Attachment: preparing pva from glue.pdf (87kB)
This file has been downloaded 332 times

wg48 - 12-9-2016 at 15:11

From the last link above, here is the procedure for the hydrolysis of the partially acetylated alcohol which they call aqueous glue.

"A solution mixture containing about 30 g of the aqueous
PVA glue in 100 mL of water and 10 mL of 2 M NaOH
is heated to a gentle boiling on a hot plate with continuous
stirring for about 25 minutes. After the reaction, the product
is precipitated in a saturated NaCl solution. The resulting
polymer is removed from the solution with a glass stirring
rod and washed with large quantity of water. Subsequently,
part of the PVA product is dissolved in water to form a viscous solution."

In the notes of the same paper:

"1. In Taiwan, as in the United States, most of the aqueous
PVA glues contain PVA with residual acetate groups. Five different aqueous PVA glues purchased from stores in the United States (clear Elmer’s washable school glue, MonoAqua liquid glue, Staples liquid glue, Dab’N Stic paper glue, and Pentel brush glue) were tested in this experiment and gave similar results.

2. In this experiment, white glue is not used for the preparation of PVA because polyvinyl acetate is much more difficult to be hydrolyzed in aqueous solution. We have tried the hydrolysis in ethanol using strong base as the catalyst. A barely complete hydrolyzed PVA was obtained by refluxing the mixtures of 10 g of white glue and 2.6 g KOH in 100 mL of ethanol for 2.5 hours."

I guess its more difficult to hydrolyze the emulsion of polyvinyl acetate because it not soluble in water.

argyrium - 12-9-2016 at 15:24

Hi,

Perhaps some of the confusion is in the nomenclature. PVA can mean Polyvinyl Acetate OR Polyvinyl ALCOHOL. The alcohol is sometimes listed as PVOH.

I've made the borax cross linked material with PVOH.

You may wish to read this monograph.

Attachment: phpICT9ma (2MB)
This file has been downloaded 398 times

Hope this helps.

NEMO-Chemistry - 12-9-2016 at 16:27

Quote: Originally posted by wg48  
From the last link above, here is the procedure for the hydrolysis of the partially acetylated alcohol which they call aqueous glue.

"A solution mixture containing about 30 g of the aqueous
PVA glue in 100 mL of water and 10 mL of 2 M NaOH
is heated to a gentle boiling on a hot plate with continuous
stirring for about 25 minutes. After the reaction, the product
is precipitated in a saturated NaCl solution. The resulting
polymer is removed from the solution with a glass stirring
rod and washed with large quantity of water. Subsequently,
part of the PVA product is dissolved in water to form a viscous solution."

In the notes of the same paper:

"1. In Taiwan, as in the United States, most of the aqueous
PVA glues contain PVA with residual acetate groups. Five different aqueous PVA glues purchased from stores in the United States (clear Elmer’s washable school glue, MonoAqua liquid glue, Staples liquid glue, Dab’N Stic paper glue, and Pentel brush glue) were tested in this experiment and gave similar results.

2. In this experiment, white glue is not used for the preparation of PVA because polyvinyl acetate is much more difficult to be hydrolyzed in aqueous solution. We have tried the hydrolysis in ethanol using strong base as the catalyst. A barely complete hydrolyzed PVA was obtained by refluxing the mixtures of 10 g of white glue and 2.6 g KOH in 100 mL of ethanol for 2.5 hours."

I guess its more difficult to hydrolyze the emulsion of polyvinyl acetate because it not soluble in water.


I didnt save the link and dismissed the information(probably a mistake), but i think i read information alluding to adding HCl to make the white acetate soluble..

I need to be more careful when reading stuff and how i organize it!

If nothing else getting to the bottom of this and trying a few things out will be good practice, even a fail would be useful in some respects.