Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Fulminating Gold

dieglegold - 17-10-2015 at 12:40

I have been trying to prepare fulminating gold for 2 months with rare success. Most of my batches do not detonate, although I had success twice; however, I have been unable to repeat those successes. I have been using the various recipes on the Internet, typically: dissolve pure gold in aqua regia (1 part HNO3 to 4 parts HCl), dilute the gold chloride solution with about 5 volumes of distilled water, precipitate fulminating gold with aqueous ammonia (purchased from grocery store), filter the precipitate (on coffee filters), then dry it while on the filter paper at about 35C. The precipitates usually do not explode, although sometimes they fizzle a bit and emit the characteristic purple gold aerosol. What am I doing wrong? I need some advice, please.

aga - 17-10-2015 at 12:59

What and Why ?

What did you do the last time, in Detail, and Why post here without any reference to a procedure you followed instead of posting this in Beginnings ?

hissingnoise - 17-10-2015 at 13:24

Quote:
have been trying to prepare fulminating gold for 2 months with rare success. Most of my batches do not detonate, although I had success twice; however, I have been unable to repeat those successes. I have been using the various recipes on the Internet, typically: dissolve pure gold in aqua regia (1 part HNO3 to 4 parts HCl), dilute the gold chloride solution with about 5 volumes of distilled water, precipitate fulminating gold with aqueous ammonia (purchased from grocery store), filter the precipitate (on coffee filters), then dry it while on the filter paper at about 35C.

Ammonia cleaner is dilute NH4OH!

Using an excess might make all the difference . . . ?

cyanureeves - 17-10-2015 at 16:04

oh yes! i can promise you that a stouter ammonia will get you there.i did it about three times and was satisfied because all i was after was the red precipitate.i used the stuff for gold plating but one time i used ammonia that i had made by bubbling ammonia gas by product.i was making sodium nitrate using sodium hydroxide and ammonium nitrate and decided to make use of the gas by product.i harnessed quite a bit of gas in cold water and that ammonium hydroxide made a big difference.damn gold exploded violently like a powerful firecracker.wear goggles.

OneEyedPyro - 17-10-2015 at 16:51

Janitorial ammonia is usually 15% while the type found in grocery stores is much weaker and often contains additives, I'm not sure which kind you have but I'm guessing the latter.
Just make your own like Cyanu said with some distilled water in an ice bath.

dieglegold - 18-10-2015 at 16:28

To answer aga's question above, the reason is because I am brand new to this forum and don't yet understand how it works. Any explanation as to how and where I should first post would be appreciated.

Regarding cyanureeves information, I have two more questions: 1) Should I dilute the gold chloride solution with water before I add ammonium hydroxide, and if so, by how many volumes of water? 2) When I add the ammonium hydroxide, should I add a large excess and then decant off the liquid phase, or is it important to add just enough to precipitate all the fulminating gold but not an excess?

I am really motivated to use a procedure that will give me successful results, reliably.

Anyone else who wishes to answer is also welcome.

cyanureeves - 18-10-2015 at 17:37

i thought stoichiometry was like a religion so i dont use it much.i add the ammonium hydroxide straight to the gold in aqua regia without diluting.i think hissingnoise meant that if the ammonia is too diluted then excess will eventually get you the stoichiometric equivalent to drop the red gold.i add ammonia little by little until it all changes color,it will immediately a bit turbulent then go almost clear as it precipitates.it happens really quick.

[Edited on 10-19-2015 by cyanureeves]

dieglegold - 18-10-2015 at 19:38

Cyanureeves: Understood, and thank you very much for providing additional details. Rather than produce my own ammonium hydroxide, I took the easy route and ordered 29% ACS grade on the Internet. Your reference to "red" gold is confusing to me, because the literature on the Internet describes FG as being yellow or brown. The two successes I had were with yellow FG (once) and tan/beige FG (once). Anyway, I will see what I get when I follow your instructions.

JJay - 18-10-2015 at 19:53

This is an excellent topic. I understand that fulminating gold was heavily researched by medieval alchemists, some of whom died when they attempted to produce it in large quantities.

Tdep - 18-10-2015 at 20:20

I have an idea what might be going wrong. On first addition of ammonia, there is a gold precipitate that forms but this is not the energetic FG (I see my EAu acronymn never took off, oh well) but gold hydroxide because youre lowering the pH. To form te FG you need to add ammonia until the gold hydroxide redissolves and then precipitates out again as a slightly different yellow coloured solid.

If you have lots of excess mimeral acid in your dissolved gold, it can seem like youve added too much ammonia but you need enough to form the second precipitate which is the complex you want. Be careful!

MrHomeScientist - 19-10-2015 at 06:26

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
i thought stoichiometry was like a religion so i dont use it much.

Why would you think that?

Bert - 19-10-2015 at 07:03

Quote: Originally posted by dieglegold  
Cyanureeves: Rather than produce my own ammonium hydroxide, I took the easy route and ordered 29% ACS grade on the Internet.


Bet that was expensive...

http://www.gsdirect.net/michlin-ammonia.html

halogen - 19-10-2015 at 08:02

Well I find it rather interesting that the most perfect metal has little enough interest in combining with impure substances like ammonia. Take a minute to consider what is the primary source of ammonia? Urine. Putrefaction and decay, and rejection from the living body are the sources of ammonia, and ammonia compounds. These gold rejects explosively.

Consider, further, that ammonia is, according to modern chemical knowledge, a bastardized form of water, on water all live depends, and that the alkahest, also according to modern chemical knowledge, is identifiable unquestionably with fluorine. Hydrogen fluoride, which spells death to us mortal humans, being a compound of fluorine and hydrogen, is therefore by analogy a more perfect water.

In recent news let us suppose that the claim of an "alien" superstructure, some four thousands of light years away, is correctly interpreted. Could it be these aliens inhale as their vital substance the most perfect water, hydrogen fluoride, and reject aqua terrae as we do ammonia?

Chemically, the exhalations of these beings can dissolve silicaceous rocks. On that topic consider the chemical analogy between carbon, which is vital to our organs, silicium, which is the the prime constituent of rocks, and tin and lead! which the alchemists knew as "base metals". Surely this can be no coincidence.

Finally, regard that fluorine combines withh all elements except for helium; of helium the sun is largely made. One must study carefully the implications of the chemical and vital activity of neon. It only enters into combination with the alcahest at the lowest temperatures.

What does alchemy teach us?

[Edited on 19-10-2015 by halogen]

Bert - 19-10-2015 at 08:39

I have no response to that...

dieglegold - 19-10-2015 at 10:33

I believe that Halogen has perhaps inhaled too much halogen.

Tdep: Excellent suggestion. I will address it.

BTW, the 29% ammonium hydroxide cost $13.00 for a pint. However, if I can afford to explode gold and need pure ammonia to do it, what is $13, right? (We won't mention the shipping cost.)

dieglegold - 19-10-2015 at 11:40

I meant $13 for a 1000 ml bottle, not a pint.

cyanureeves - 19-10-2015 at 14:28

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
i thought stoichiometry was like a religion so i dont use it much.

Why would you think that?
stoicism was what i heard in bible class and gnostics too.beliefs that christians encountered way back in the 1st century before layboy,deschem and such.

cyanureeves - 19-10-2015 at 14:40

Quote: Originally posted by dieglegold  
Cyanureeves: Understood, and thank you very much for providing additional details. Rather than produce my own ammonium hydroxide, I took the easy route and ordered 29% ACS grade on the Internet. Your reference to "red" gold is confusing to me, because the literature on the Internet describes FG as being yellow or brown. The two successes I had were with yellow FG (once) and tan/beige FG (once). Anyway, I will see what I get when I follow your instructions.
it looked redish to me,but i'll say it looks yellow or brown or red.my mac mini keeps dropping internet signal.$600.00 i paid and it's a pc. of junk,junk,junk! but hey it's an apple????

[Edited on 10-19-2015 by cyanureeves]

dieglegold - 20-10-2015 at 08:16

Well, another failure-partially. I followed Tdep's advice by adding a large excess of ammonium hydroxide to a gold chloride solution (containing very little if any excess aqua regia, because I had saturated the aqua regia with gold). A yellow/tan precipitate formed instantly, which I filtered, rinsed with distilled water while on the filter paper, and then scraped off and air dried on a Teflon sheet. Some pieces "pop" when lit with a match, but other just "hiss" and sometimes extinguish the match. It is as if the precipitate is a "weak" form of FG. If this problem is because I am still using household ammonia, I will know next week because that is when the 29% solution (ACS grade) is to be delivered.
I continue to have trouble connecting with my "inner alchemist." Thanks to all who have contributed information to help me conquer this vexing issue.

Amos - 20-10-2015 at 10:37

Quote: Originally posted by dieglegold  
Well, another failure-partially. I followed Tdep's advice by adding a large excess of ammonium hydroxide to a gold chloride solution (containing very little if any excess aqua regia, because I had saturated the aqua regia with gold). A yellow/tan precipitate formed instantly, which I filtered, rinsed with distilled water while on the filter paper, and then scraped off and air dried on a Teflon sheet. Some pieces "pop" when lit with a match, but other just "hiss" and sometimes extinguish the match. It is as if the precipitate is a "weak" form of FG. If this problem is because I am still using household ammonia, I will know next week because that is when the 29% solution (ACS grade) is to be delivered.
I continue to have trouble connecting with my "inner alchemist." Thanks to all who have contributed information to help me conquer this vexing issue.


Tdep seems to be our resident expert on this; to find out more than what he is conveying via text posts, you can always go and watch his video on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73esFfgASk8

dieglegold - 20-10-2015 at 11:06

The video is most helpful! The devil is usually in the details, and I learned a couple of useful tips. Thank you.

hissingnoise - 20-10-2015 at 12:01

You know what dieglegold, just send me a just a few of those big ingots and I'll certainly do you a step-by-step synthesis and proving video ─ and (wait for it) free of charge, too! ;)

I assume that shipping costs are not a problem for you so, you know, the more-the-merrier. :o

Oh, I'm so happy! :D

Thanks in advance. :cool:

cyanureeves - 20-10-2015 at 14:13

dieglegold DONT do whats in the video with your ammonia hydroxide that you ordered.in the video he uses household ammonia and shows it not detonating upon impact.your gold WILL explode,i know because it blew up on me right under my nuts and dirt flew into my eyes.1gram of gold will surely blow your hand completely off.i used a tinier amount of gold and it hurt me pretty bad,i tried to scrape it off a glass coffee pot with a screw driver.i swear i did not even get to scratch it when it blew up and was done by the weight of the screw driver alone.a member here thought it was more likely not the mere contact but the friction of the scratching.do not let it dry then try to scrape it off.i repeat.your gold WILL explode with stout ammonia.

dieglegold - 20-10-2015 at 14:50

Hissingnoise: Sometimes a person receives an offer so generous that it simply leaves one breathless. So, watch your mail for those gold ingots. Sorry, but I must ship COD since I will be broke after sending them to you. Thank you for your generous offer to help.

dieglegold - 20-10-2015 at 15:06

Cyanureeves, Tdep and others: I have now joined the ranks of those who can prepare fulminating gold, after a 2-month long frustrating journey of experiments. I am very pleased to have finally succeeded. Here is the back story: I am used to the way that silver acetylide detonates: a very small pile of that powder explodes violently and loudly when touched with a lit match. The shock wave moves rapidly through the loose pile of powder such that confinement of the powder is not necessary. So, after reading online that FG is very powerful, I assumed it would behave similarly, namely, that a small pile will explode when touched with a match. Instead, the powder often just pops and blows away other tiny particles before they all have a chance to detonate. It was only after I watched the video recommended by Amos this morning that I realized that FG needs to be confined in order for the quantity to completely detonate. Tdep uses confinement with Al foil to enable the detonation shock wave to travel through the entire amount of confined powder. So, when I wrapped the powder I had prepared over the past few days, and which I thought had disappointing low power, in Al foil and heated the foil, it exploded loudly and punctured the foil.

The video that was recommended to me by Amos did the trick; thanks to Tdep and Amos.

Cyanureeves: Your warning about using stout ammonia has me really anxious for the stuff to arrive so I can hopefully achieve the power that you describe. "Pops" are nice, but big "bangs" are nicer!


Tdep - 20-10-2015 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
dieglegold DONT do whats in the video with your ammonia hydroxide that you ordered.in the video he uses household ammonia and shows it not detonating upon impact.your gold WILL explode,i know because it blew up on me right under my nuts and dirt flew into my eyes.1gram of gold will surely blow your hand completely off.i used a tinier amount of gold and it hurt me pretty bad,i tried to scrape it off a glass coffee pot with a screw driver.i swear i did not even get to scratch it when it blew up and was done by the weight of the screw driver alone.a member here thought it was more likely not the mere contact but the friction of the scratching.do not let it dry then try to scrape it off.i repeat.your gold WILL explode with stout ammonia.


Oh oh I know why this is too! Quite a significant issue I only realised after someone on reddit pointed it out to me.

Cyanureeves what you used scrapped gold. Scrapped gold that would likely contain some silver. If there is trace amounts of silver, you're going to produce the similar fulminating silver complex, sometimes called silver nitride. It's black and explosive, but unlike FG it's amazingly sensitive. Crazily sensitive. I've been making some this past week and it explodes on impact only slightly more than touch powder, I set it off tapping some dried filter paper with a long stick. It's worse than touch powder though, because it's also exploded on me while completely in suspension because I looked at it wrong, and least touch powder is docile when wet!

Me and OP used pure gold, native gold does not contain silver where as scrapped gold does. Any amount of fulminating silver produced will be touch sensitive and detonate the rest of the FG. DO NOT produce FG with impure gold and expect to be able to handle it.


Another issue with FG is that the complex is messy, containing varying amounts of ammonia, chloride and water ligands around the gold. Those variations will cause a change in the properties of the explosive. I noticed variations in properties from batch to batch. It is probably that concentrated ammonia produces a more sensitive product due to a more complete replacement of the water ligands with ammonia (okok ammine, ligand names are stupid) ligands rather than with household ammonia. I didn't have conc ammonia at the time but I do now, so I can test this out when I get some more free time.


[Edited on 20-10-2015 by Tdep]

cyanureeves - 20-10-2015 at 16:16

my gold was in fact not pure gold.

dieglegold - 30-10-2015 at 08:51

Well, I am back to generating disappointing results with fulminating gold. I received the bottle of 29% ammonium hydroxide, which I believed would create powerful FG as indicated by cyanureeves (see above). I took about 3 cc of gold chloride solution (prepared by dissolving a gold nugget in 1:3 aqua regia and containing about 0.3 gm of gold), diluted it to 10 cc with water, then added an excess of stout ammonia solution. A yellowish precipitate formed, which I filtered and then washed with some distilled water while the ppt was still on the filter paper. I dried the ppt. When touched with a match, it fizzles slightly. When wrapped in Al foil and heated, it pops and fizzles. I am disappointed, because I thought the stout ammonia would create a powerful FG. What am I doing wrong this time?

hissingnoise - 30-10-2015 at 09:13

Are you using jewelry-grade gold, by any chance?

JJay - 30-10-2015 at 09:18

Are there any surfactants in the ammonium hydroxide?

dieglegold - 30-10-2015 at 12:31

Until this last batch I had been using 99.99 % bullion gold. If you read above, I had plenty of problems making it work. For this last batch I used gold nuggets. The silver in the nuggets formed a silver chloride ppt in the aqua regia, which I expected from past experience, and so I decanted off the gold chloride/aqua regia solution and discarded the silver chloride ppt.

I don't believe there are surfactants in the ammonia solution because it is sold as pure 29% ammonium hydroxide by Consolidated Chemical and Solvents, LLC. Supposedly it is ACS grade.

What I keep experiencing is a "weak" form of FG, which fizzles and pops but rarely explodes. My procedure is not producing the pure stuff like Tdep and cyanureeves describe, but I cannot figure out why.

cyanureeves - 30-10-2015 at 17:23

you dont have to dilute the aqua regia just pour the ammonia in into it.funny how i dont recall ever seeing an ammonium chloride cloud when i added the ammonia.i had done it about three times prior until the last batch got me and up into my eyes flew what precious little gold i had.you could probably redo all your precipitates and make a nuclear explosion with it.careful and dont get complacent!this FG is as elusive to you as Ammonium iron(III) sulfate is to me.