Sciencemadness Discussion Board

mystery writer has cyanide question

nell - 3-8-2015 at 04:33

Hope I'm putting this in the right section...

Here's the scenario in the book I'm working on: an old lady is murdered by her sister. The sister is an avid gardener and has apricot and bitter almond trees in her garden. She makes a form of cyanide from them and puts some of it in a bottle of perfume that she gives to the old lady for her birthday.

Is this at all reasonable? What method could she use to make the cyanide, and what form should it be in? Do you think spraying it on the skin, diluted with perfume, would kill someone?

Thanks so much for any help you can give me. Chemistry makes my head spin.:)

hyfalcon - 3-8-2015 at 04:46

Might want to look at Purple Monkshood. It would make a great poison in the wrong dosages.

Little_Ghost_again - 3-8-2015 at 05:16

Is this your first book?

woelen - 3-8-2015 at 05:30

The scenario is not very realistic. Cyanide, diluted with perfume, would not kill someone. Cyanide simply is not sufficiently toxic. You can only get killed by cyanide by means of ingestion or inhalation of vapor of hydrogen cyanide. One possible route to death through skin-contact only may be dissolving of a cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide (this is a colorless oily liquid without odour if pure) and putting this on a sufficiently large area of skin. Dimethylsulfoxide itself is not really toxic, but it penetrates skin very well and can take with it other toxic agents into the body. Maybe you change the scenario somewhat: the killer lady gives her sister some nice "skin treatment oil", which in reality is a solution of hydrogen cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide with a little fragrance added to give it an acceptable smell.

Bot0nist - 3-8-2015 at 05:39

Skin contact with and the inhalation of aerosolized solutions of hydrogen cyanide or cyanide compounds could cause acute posioning. Solvents that penetrate skin easily and rapidly, such as DMSO would make matters worse, though the alcohol and oils in perfume would likely get the job done.
Quote:

"The World Health Organization report inConcise International Chemical Assessment Document 61: HYDROGEN CYANIDE AND CYANIDES: HUMAN HEALTH ASPECTS

Following application of cyanides in aqueous solution to the intact skin of New Zealand rabbits, the dermal LD50s of hydrogen cyanide, sodium cyanide, and potassium cyanide were 0.260, 0.298, and 0.343 mmol/kg body weight, respectively (corresponding to 6.8, 7.7, and 8.9 mg cyanide/kg body weight) (Ballantyne, 1983a). The dermal toxicity of cyanide, especially of hydrogen cyanide, is markedly greater following application on abraded skin, which enhances the penetration of cyanide (LD50s of 0.087, 0.220, and 0.30 mmol/kg for hydrogen cyanide, sodium cyanide, and potassium cyanide, respectively) (Ballantyne, 1987).5"


There is a strong intrest from amateur organic chemists for it, as it has many uses and is understandably difficult to scource. There is at least one dedicated thread to the subject here, and it focuses mostly on a non-botanical starting material, namely potassium ferricyanide.

I'm quite sure there are many other intresting and deadly plants your character could raise in a greenhouse and extract a topically effective posion for your deadly perfume plot device. Nicotine from tobacco, ricin from castor, and gamma-coniceine/coniine from hemlock all jump to mind first. Countless more exist, I would wager.

[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Bot0nist]

Sorry woelen, you posted as I typed. At second look of my qoute I see that a few perfume sprays is not enough. I defer to your expertise.


[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Bot0nist]

[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Bot0nist]

diggafromdover - 3-8-2015 at 06:30

The ubiquitous lily of the valley contains a slew of toxic glycosides which would mimic digitalis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convallatoxin

No need to reach up for peaches, just kneel down in your breeches, cut some lilies for tea, and say bye-bye to thee...


But if you want somebody dead for sure with lots of time to think about it, dimethyl mercury is oh so very nasty.

[Edited on 3-8-2015 by diggafromdover]

Magpie - 3-8-2015 at 08:30

nell, I like the storyline of your novel. The little old lady is simply making use of common food trees she has in her garden rather than purposely growing exotic poison containing plants.

Making a poison perfume is also rather creative. Once this sister has her NaCN or KCN from the apricots/almonds she could easily put it in her sister's tea. But the perfume delivery is a clever new delivery route for the home poisoner I think.

You would probably like to know the chemistry of how to get the cyanide from the apricot pits. IIRC it must be made from the amygdalin in the pits:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin

[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Magpie]

diggafromdover - 3-8-2015 at 10:52

Blending it into her foundation layer would also suffice.

S.C. Wack - 3-8-2015 at 12:05

Pure HCN could work in a bottle capable of holding a little pressure. It would be fast so there would be a person dead from cyanide, holding bottle of same that everyone knows was this gift, so it doesn't sound like a well thought out plan.

Tip for non-gardening poisoners: exotic marine sources IIRC in the top 20 most poisonous things.

If someone is dead set on cyanide poisoning from natural sources, the obvious route is amygdalin, orally.

Magpie - 3-8-2015 at 12:24

As a side note I remember watching an Agatha Christie murder mystery on TV. Cyanide (can't remember in what form) was placed in a teapot that the victim had just placed on the stove to heat. When the pot whistled the victim was killed when he went to get the pot. I suppose the poison was HCN gas.

diggafromdover - 3-8-2015 at 12:38

Here is another favorite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_tetracarbonyl

It mimics cardiac problems. You recover, then you relapse and die. Breaks down rapidly in air. We need a murder and morbidity forum!

nell - 3-8-2015 at 13:36

Oh my, you guys are awesome! And some great ideas, really really helpful!

This is not my first book but it is my first mystery. The old lady is a horror who stole her sister's boyfriend and married him even though she didn't even like him, so really it's a wonder the sister waits so long to do her in...

Off to follow your links. Thanks again!

aga - 3-8-2015 at 14:03

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
the killer lady gives her sister some nice "skin treatment oil", which in reality is a solution of hydrogen cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide with a little fragrance added to give it an acceptable smell.

Perhaps the Sisters can have some actual aches and pains.

The 'helpful gift' could be given with words to the effect :

"This is wonderful stuff ! It will help us both be rid of our Pain."

Little_Ghost_again - 3-8-2015 at 14:06

I hate to say it but its not a mystery any longer! we know who did it and with what!! You have just ruined it for me :P

Little_Ghost_again - 3-8-2015 at 14:07

Quote: Originally posted by diggafromdover  
. We need a murder and morbidity forum!



Isnt that kinda covered by the EM forum?

Magpie - 3-8-2015 at 14:41

Quote: Originally posted by diggafromdover  
We need a murder and morbidity forum!


In a related subject we already have a nice long thread in Whimsy on body disposal :D:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11741

Corrosive Joeseph - 3-8-2015 at 15:02

Let's just hope the OP is really a writer.....................!! :o

diggafromdover - 4-8-2015 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
Quote: Originally posted by diggafromdover  
. We need a murder and morbidity forum!



Isnt that kinda covered by the EM forum?


Well now, not everything ends with a bang. Whimpers have their place as well. Subtlety has its own cachet.

cyanureeves - 4-8-2015 at 14:50

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph  
Let's just hope the OP is really a writer.....................!! :o
no kidding! it's fiction any way so who cares if it's acurate. there have been t.v. show stuff that has been debunked here also.

careysub - 4-8-2015 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon  
Might want to look at Purple Monkshood. It would make a great poison in the wrong dosages.


I second Monkshood. The alkaloid in it, aconitine, is as toxic as nerve gas, and it really does kill people by skin contact. Picking leaves has caused fatal poisoning. It would take an hour or two to have effect after skin absorption.

skip - 4-8-2015 at 17:21

dumb

Little_Ghost_again - 5-8-2015 at 03:54

Quote: Originally posted by diggafromdover  
Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
Quote: Originally posted by diggafromdover  
. We need a murder and morbidity forum!



Isnt that kinda covered by the EM forum?


Subtlety has its own cachet.


Subtlety is on my bucket list of to do's by 20! I have left an option to extend that to 40 :D

diggafromdover - 5-8-2015 at 05:46

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
the killer lady gives her sister some nice "skin treatment oil", which in reality is a solution of hydrogen cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide with a little fragrance added to give it an acceptable smell.

Perhaps the Sisters can have some actual aches and pains.

The 'helpful gift' could be given with words to the effect :

"This is wonderful stuff ! It will help us both be rid of our Pain."


Garlic Breath - serious garlic breath is an almost immediate consequence of contact with DMSO.