nell
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mystery writer has cyanide question
Hope I'm putting this in the right section...
Here's the scenario in the book I'm working on: an old lady is murdered by her sister. The sister is an avid gardener and has apricot and bitter
almond trees in her garden. She makes a form of cyanide from them and puts some of it in a bottle of perfume that she gives to the old lady for her
birthday.
Is this at all reasonable? What method could she use to make the cyanide, and what form should it be in? Do you think spraying it on the skin, diluted
with perfume, would kill someone?
Thanks so much for any help you can give me. Chemistry makes my head spin.
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hyfalcon
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Might want to look at Purple Monkshood. It would make a great poison in the wrong dosages.
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Little_Ghost_again
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Is this your first book?
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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woelen
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The scenario is not very realistic. Cyanide, diluted with perfume, would not kill someone. Cyanide simply is not sufficiently toxic. You can only get
killed by cyanide by means of ingestion or inhalation of vapor of hydrogen cyanide. One possible route to death through skin-contact only may be
dissolving of a cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide (this is a colorless oily liquid without odour if pure) and putting this on a sufficiently large area of
skin. Dimethylsulfoxide itself is not really toxic, but it penetrates skin very well and can take with it other toxic agents into the body. Maybe you
change the scenario somewhat: the killer lady gives her sister some nice "skin treatment oil", which in reality is a solution of hydrogen cyanide in
dimethylsulfoxide with a little fragrance added to give it an acceptable smell.
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Bot0nist
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Skin contact with and the inhalation of aerosolized solutions of hydrogen cyanide or cyanide compounds could cause acute posioning. Solvents that
penetrate skin easily and rapidly, such as DMSO would make matters worse, though the alcohol and oils in perfume would likely get the job done.
| Quote: |
"The World Health Organization report inConcise International Chemical Assessment Document 61: HYDROGEN CYANIDE AND CYANIDES: HUMAN HEALTH ASPECTS
Following application of cyanides in aqueous solution to the intact skin of New Zealand rabbits, the dermal LD50s of hydrogen cyanide, sodium cyanide,
and potassium cyanide were 0.260, 0.298, and 0.343 mmol/kg body weight, respectively (corresponding to 6.8, 7.7, and 8.9 mg cyanide/kg body weight)
(Ballantyne, 1983a). The dermal toxicity of cyanide, especially of hydrogen cyanide, is markedly greater following application on abraded skin, which
enhances the penetration of cyanide (LD50s of 0.087, 0.220, and 0.30 mmol/kg for hydrogen cyanide, sodium cyanide, and potassium cyanide,
respectively) (Ballantyne, 1987).5"
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There is a strong intrest from amateur organic chemists for it, as it has many uses and is understandably difficult to scource. There is at least one
dedicated thread to the subject here, and it focuses mostly on a non-botanical starting material, namely potassium ferricyanide.
I'm quite sure there are many other intresting and deadly plants your character could raise in a greenhouse and extract a topically effective posion
for your deadly perfume plot device. Nicotine from tobacco, ricin from castor, and gamma-coniceine/coniine from hemlock all jump to mind first.
Countless more exist, I would wager.
[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Bot0nist]
Sorry woelen, you posted as I typed. At second look of my qoute I see that a few perfume sprays is not enough. I defer to your expertise.
[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Bot0nist]
[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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diggafromdover
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The ubiquitous lily of the valley contains a slew of toxic glycosides which would mimic digitalis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convallatoxin
No need to reach up for peaches, just kneel down in your breeches, cut some lilies for tea, and say bye-bye to thee...
But if you want somebody dead for sure with lots of time to think about it, dimethyl mercury is oh so very nasty.
[Edited on 3-8-2015 by diggafromdover]
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Magpie
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nell, I like the storyline of your novel. The little old lady is simply making use of common food trees she has in her garden rather than purposely
growing exotic poison containing plants.
Making a poison perfume is also rather creative. Once this sister has her NaCN or KCN from the apricots/almonds she could easily put it in her
sister's tea. But the perfume delivery is a clever new delivery route for the home poisoner I think.
You would probably like to know the chemistry of how to get the cyanide from the apricot pits. IIRC it must be made from the amygdalin in the pits:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin
[Edited on 3-8-2015 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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diggafromdover
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Blending it into her foundation layer would also suffice.
Enjoying second childhood with REAL chemistry set.
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S.C. Wack
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Pure HCN could work in a bottle capable of holding a little pressure. It would be fast so there would be a person dead from cyanide, holding bottle of
same that everyone knows was this gift, so it doesn't sound like a well thought out plan.
Tip for non-gardening poisoners: exotic marine sources IIRC in the top 20 most poisonous things.
If someone is dead set on cyanide poisoning from natural sources, the obvious route is amygdalin, orally.
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Magpie
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As a side note I remember watching an Agatha Christie murder mystery on TV. Cyanide (can't remember in what form) was placed in a teapot that the
victim had just placed on the stove to heat. When the pot whistled the victim was killed when he went to get the pot. I suppose the poison was HCN
gas.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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diggafromdover
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Here is another favorite:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_tetracarbonyl
It mimics cardiac problems. You recover, then you relapse and die. Breaks down rapidly in air. We need a murder and morbidity forum!
Enjoying second childhood with REAL chemistry set.
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nell
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Oh my, you guys are awesome! And some great ideas, really really helpful!
This is not my first book but it is my first mystery. The old lady is a horror who stole her sister's boyfriend and married him even though she didn't
even like him, so really it's a wonder the sister waits so long to do her in...
Off to follow your links. Thanks again!
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aga
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Quote: Originally posted by woelen  | | the killer lady gives her sister some nice "skin treatment oil", which in reality is a solution of hydrogen cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide with a little
fragrance added to give it an acceptable smell. |
Perhaps the Sisters can have some actual aches and pains.
The 'helpful gift' could be given with words to the effect :
"This is wonderful stuff ! It will help us both be rid of our Pain."
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Little_Ghost_again
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I hate to say it but its not a mystery any longer! we know who did it and with what!! You have just ruined it for me 
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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Little_Ghost_again
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Isnt that kinda covered by the EM forum?
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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Magpie
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In a related subject we already have a nice long thread in Whimsy on body disposal  :
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11741
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Corrosive Joeseph
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Let's just hope the OP is really a writer.....................!! 
Being well adjusted to a sick society is no measure of one's mental health
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diggafromdover
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Well now, not everything ends with a bang. Whimpers have their place as well. Subtlety has its own cachet.
Enjoying second childhood with REAL chemistry set.
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cyanureeves
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no kidding! it's fiction any way so who cares if it's acurate. there have been t.v. show stuff that has
been debunked here also.
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careysub
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I second Monkshood. The alkaloid in it, aconitine, is as toxic as nerve gas, and it really does kill people by skin contact. Picking leaves has caused
fatal poisoning. It would take an hour or two to have effect after skin absorption.
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skip
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dumb
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Little_Ghost_again
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Subtlety is on my bucket list of to do's by 20! I have left an option to extend that to 40
Dont ask me, I only know enough to be dangerous
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diggafromdover
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | the killer lady gives her sister some nice "skin treatment oil", which in reality is a solution of hydrogen cyanide in dimethylsulfoxide with a little
fragrance added to give it an acceptable smell. |
Perhaps the Sisters can have some actual aches and pains.
The 'helpful gift' could be given with words to the effect :
"This is wonderful stuff ! It will help us both be rid of our Pain." |
Garlic Breath - serious garlic breath is an almost immediate consequence of contact with DMSO.
Enjoying second childhood with REAL chemistry set.
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