Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Why doesn't granite and water explode

Why doesn't granite and water explode

Yttrium2 - 21-3-2015 at 13:23

I feel I have to answer even the most crazy questions to alleviate fear, so why doesn't granite and water explode?

Is The first thing to know systematically the chemicals involved?
And then what?

(I may be having a brain frat, some one asked me the other day when I was doing an experiment if it would explode, when I was reducing waters, now I feel obsessed about being able to explain why "ordinary things" don't explode!

(It's interesting to note someone in a similar threat used similar wording about things "exploding") is this some new meme catch phrase or something to link people together?

Why does lithium metal react with H20 again? Hmm I should remember back to general chemistry, I am having difficulty.... Something to do with its ionization energy? Why does it displace hydrogen?

[Edited on 21-3-2015 by Yttrium2]

ISCGora - 21-3-2015 at 13:39

Well lithium metal reacts with water because it would really like to have those 8 electrons and that is also the reason why you don't find first and second group metals in elemental state and in case of granite.It is a stable compound when you introduce water because it is basically already happy compound(mineral).That doesn't mean it wont react it only means it wont react with some stuff.
Granite is also a mix of many oxide like:
SiO2
Al2O3
K2O
Na2O
CaO
FeO
Fe2O3
And some others but in much less %.

Yttrium2 - 21-3-2015 at 14:10

Oh yeah lol

Can't you find things that are trying to get 8 electrons in nature however? Copper?
I forget that things need a octet but not everything, and Ive forgotten why, if anyone can answer that's, it'd be greatly appreciated

[Edited on 21-3-2015 by Yttrium2]

ISCGora - 21-3-2015 at 14:26

Well technically take hydrogen for a eg it can only have 2 valent electrons so if you mean on that ...

phlogiston - 21-3-2015 at 15:05

The answers to these questions can be found in any basic chemistry textbook.

8 electrons:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octet_rule

The reaction of lithium with water is an example of a redox reaction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox

I really don't understand your granite and water question. Why would you expect it might explode?

diddi - 21-3-2015 at 16:39

lookup redox potential.

Amos - 21-3-2015 at 17:03

It seems that there is a general trend of questions being asked that might be just as easily answered by sitting down and opening a chemistry book. I would highly recommend doing so and learning the basics of why reactions happen and how there are trends among certain groups of elements or compounds. Doing so would eliminate the need for you to ask questions like this as well as give you a much larger picture than the minute amounts of information you can glean from the very specific answers you receive.

phlogiston - 22-3-2015 at 03:13

A good textbook is also much better at feeding you the information in the right order.
You need to understand certain things first before making the next step. Asking questions in more or less random order will sooner or later get you to the basics too, but it will take a lot longer and you are risking that forum members get tired of answering your questions if they feel you made no serious effort yourself first.

morganbw - 22-3-2015 at 04:51

Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston

A good textbook is also much better at feeding you the information in the right order.
You need to understand certain things first before making the next step. Asking questions in more or less random order will sooner or later get you to the basics too, but it will take a lot longer and you are risking that forum members get tired of answering your questions if they feel you made no serious effort yourself first.

I agree.
Older high school chem. books were simple and very filled with info. I am not sure how the current books are?
There are some really good reads in the library on this site as well but I fear that most of them are still a little ahead of your present understanding.

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by morganbw]

neptunium - 22-3-2015 at 07:06

Quote: Originally posted by ISCGora

Well lithium metal reacts with water because it would really like to have those 8 electrons .

for lithium in particular (but the other alcali metal as well) it is a lot easier to get rid of its outter most electron than capturing 5 more ! since that lonely electron is much closer (and therefore harder to remove) to the nucleus than cesium for example, Li wont be as agressive and violent when expose to a substance like water than K or Rb.
Also Oxygen is a small atom all its electron are closer to the nucleus , its the opposite scenario! it is easier for it to gain 2 electron and complete its orbital than lose 6! so the effect of that nucleus is very much felt by the Li near by even though in water oxygen has its 2 electron shared with 2 H atoms.
H being a tiny atom it give up its electron without too much effort.
put it all together and oxygen cant wait to get the electron Lithium is too happy to get rid of , and H just doesnt care so it leaves the reaction .

on a side note , if you pulverized granite (finely divided powder) and blow compressed Fluorine at it .... it might explode

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by neptunium]

Molecular Manipulations - 22-3-2015 at 07:21

Quote: Originally posted by Yttrium2

Why does lithium metal react with H20 again? Hmm I should remember back to general chemistry, I am having difficulty.... Something to do with its ionization energy? Why does it displace hydrogen?

First thing you learn in high school chemistry: why do chemicals react?
Basically there's a strong stability when an atom has either 2 electrons (for hydrogen, helium and lithium) or 8 (for almost everything else) it it's outer shell. This is call octet happy. Lithium has three electrons total. Two of them are in helium's electron configuration, but the third is in the valence shell by itself. Since it would be easier lose a single electron to achieve helium's stability than gain 7 to make an octet, it does the former. Wanting to lose this electron so bad makes lithium a powerful reducing agent, and a proton isn't too hard to reduce, thus water can be reduced to elemental hydrogen and oxide/hydroxide easily.
Granite is already stable. I honestly don't really know much about it's chemical nature, but surely it's a complex mixture of transition metal silicates or something similar. Whatever it is, it's already oxidized. Metal oxides combined with silicon oxides are very stable, and common.
Here's an easy way to think of it, the atmosphere is very oxidizing, there's clearly an excess of oxygen on earth. So reducing agents are already oxidized and stable.

ISCGora - 22-3-2015 at 10:16

for lithium in particular (but the other alcali metal as well) it is a lot easier to get rid of its outter most electron than capturing 5 more ! since that lonely electron is much closer (and therefore harder to remove) to the nucleus than cesium for example, Li wont be as agressive and violent when expose to a substance like water than K or Rb.
Also Oxygen is a small atom all its electron are closer to the nucleus , its the opposite scenario! it is easier for it to gain 2 electron and complete its orbital than lose 6! so the effect of that nucleus is very much felt by the Li near by even though in water oxygen has its 2 electron shared with 2 H atoms.
H being a tiny atom it give up its electron without too much effort.
put it all together and oxygen cant wait to get the electron Lithium is too happy to get rid of , and H just doesnt care so it leaves the reaction .

on a side note , if you pulverized granite (finely divided powder) and blow compressed Fluorine at it .... it might explode

I know but thanks for info anyways!

Molecular Manipulations - 22-3-2015 at 11:03

ISCGora, usually when someone says something contradicting to what you said, "I know." Isn't the right response. You said lithium reacts with water to achieve an octet, which is impossible! It would need to gain 7 electrons to get that (not 5 as neptunium said, octets count for the valence electrons only, not the first two.)
Lithium gives it's valence electron to hydrogen, it doesn't grab 7!
Also there's a quote function here, or at least use "quotes" when quoting someone.

ISCGora - 22-3-2015 at 11:26

As you can read below where I mentioned hydrogen has needs only 2 electrons to be as helium so that explains I quite much understand it and in case of lithium yes I did a mistake it has 1 electron that wants to get rid of and then has 2 as helium.

Yttrium2 - 22-3-2015 at 11:34

Thanks, it gets annoying all the condescending behavior, people who've likely never taken a chemistry class are telling me to pick up a book! Chemistry is my major!
So annoying, a lot of my questions seem basic (such as what a theory is) but are not as basic as they seem. (Still basic just lots of people don't understand) I'm definitely learning who is credible here, and who is certainly not

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by Yttrium2]

Yttrium2 - 22-3-2015 at 11:43

I'm still confused as to why the lithium can replace a hydrogen. Doesn't hydrogen stick better then lithium? (What is the formal term)

Wouldn't hydrogen have a stronger hold on hydroxide then a lithium would?

When thinking of halogens if there is KI or KBr and Cl is added, Cl replaces the lower electronegative anions, forming KCl and KBr

Analogous to electronegativity, wouldn't hydrogen stick better to a hydroxide group then would a lithium?

Why again do metals have an easier time giving up elections then they do accepting them?

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by Yttrium2]

Molecular Manipulations - 22-3-2015 at 11:52

Sorry I forgot to mention that... hydrogen can get a "happy" as well be losing it's only electron to become just a proton. It's not as stable as helium's configuration.
Lithium losing an electron and hydrogen gaining one is more favorable than nothing happening.
Exactly why these electron configurations are so stable is a little out of my grasp, although I could elaborate. There's so many books available that explain it much better than I can.

ISCGora - 22-3-2015 at 12:02

For e.g. take Li atomic number 3:first shell 2e-
second shell 1e-
It sounds more logical to just give of that one electron then finding additional 7.
On other hand Halogens e.g. Cl has atomic number 17:first shell 2e-
second shell 8e-
third shell 7e-
Again sounds more logical to get one e- then removing 7 of them.

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by ISCGora]

neptunium - 22-3-2015 at 12:04

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations

ISCGora, It would need to gain 7 electrons to get that (not 5 as neptunium said, octets count for the valence electrons only, not the first two.)
Lithium gives it's valence electron to hydrogen, it doesn't grab 7!
.

i was thinking 8 total for the outter shell sorry. 7 is the correct number of electron for Li to get to 8,( the valence electrons only, not the first two.)therefore a complet octet is 7+3=10 like Neon

the nucleus is the source of the electron behaviour thats why Hydrogen with 1 positive charge just does not have the kick to compet with Li with 3 protons. so Lithium wins and take the electrons everytime.

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by neptunium]

ISCGora - 22-3-2015 at 12:15

Cant Li just lose 1 e- to get 2 valence e- instead of gaining 7.So it would be it lost one e- and has 2 left which is same as helium.

neptunium - 22-3-2015 at 12:17

if you read the first post thats exactly what i said

Amos - 22-3-2015 at 12:40

Nearly everyone on this site, I would bet, has taken a chemistry class, and I would bet 100% of those responding to you have taken one if not several. And sorry, but shouldn't a chemistry major use better chemical language than "doesn't hydrogen stick better"?

Molecular Manipulations - 22-3-2015 at 12:58

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations

Lithium has three electrons total. Two of them are in helium's electron configuration, but the third is in the valence shell by itself. Since it would be easier lose a single electron to achieve helium's stability than gain 7 to make an octet, it does the former.

Quote: Originally posted by ISCGora

Cant Li just lose 1 e- to get 2 valence e- instead of gaining 7.So it would be it lost one e- and has 2 left which is same as helium.

He's got it!

[Edited on 22-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

ISCGora - 22-3-2015 at 13:59

I really do not appreciate when people make fun of my knowledge so I would love if we would finish this conversation now.
Thank you!(Molecular Manipulations )

phlogiston - 22-3-2015 at 15:31

Quote:

Thanks, it gets annoying all the condescending behavior, people who've likely never taken a chemistry class are telling me to pick up a book! Chemistry is my major!
So annoying, a lot of my questions seem basic (such as what a theory is) but are not as basic as they seem. (Still basic just lots of people don't understand) I'm definitely learning who is credible here, and who is certainly not

It was not meant to be condensing, just honestly being helpful.
I could have spend my time a lot better if it was not a serious attempt to help you.
All of the questions and the issues in the discussion above are clearly explained in the first few chapters of any good general chemistry textbook, and is presented in an optimal format for you to study it.
If you feel the advice given to you by several patient and knowledgeable people now is bad, and are confident your best options is keep asking around, so be it.

Molecular Manipulations - 23-3-2015 at 14:25

Not make fun of your knowledge ISCGora, just avoiding confusion.
Just for reference, here's the composition of granite:
SiO2 72.04% (silica)
Al2O3 14.42% (alumina)
K2O 4.12%
Na2O 3.69%
CaO 1.82%
FeO 1.68%
Fe2O3 1.22%
MgO 0.71%
TiO2 0.30%
P2O5 0.12%
MnO 0.05%
Of course most or all of these aren't actually these compounds. Like there's no free phosphorus pentoxide in there, it's going to be a phosphate ion, probably in combination with calcium. And probably most of the other oxides are in combination with silicon dioxide to make complex silicates.

Texium - 23-3-2015 at 14:39

Not to mention that granite itself is composed of little pieces of feldspar, mica, and quartz all blended together, which each may be present in different amounts and have different compositions, leading to a wide variety of different granites.
Semi-related, it's funny that this thread happened to pop up, as yesterday I was around tons of granite, out at Enchanted Rock, a very large exposed dome of pink granite fairly close to where I live. Because of this thread, while I was there I was imagining what it would be like if it suddenly decided to react explosively with water.

(see the tiny people on top for scale)

[Edited on 3-23-2015 by zts16]

Darkstar - 23-3-2015 at 22:06

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium

since that lonely electron is much closer (and therefore harder to remove) to the nucleus than cesium for example, Li wont be as agressive and violent when expose to a substance like water than K or Rb.

This isn't really true. In aqueous solution, lithium's valence electron is technically easier to remove. In fact, as a reducing agent in water, lithium is actually the strongest of the alkali metals, not the weakest. It's stronger than sodium, potassium, rubidium and even cesium. Just look at a reduction potential table. At first glance you might think lithium would be the weakest of the bunch due to its valence electron being so close to its nucleus. And according to its ionization energy, lithium's valence electron is indeed the most difficult to remove. However, keep in mind that this is for gas-phase lithium alone, not lithium reacting with water. It doesn't take into consideration the interaction between lithium and water itself, or lithium's extremely high hydration energy due to the small size of the Li+ ion and its high charge density.

The reason lithium doesn't react as violently or as aggressively with water as the other alkali metals do is because of its higher melting point. Unlike sodium, potassium, cesium etc, lithium doesn't become molten during the reaction, so there's a lot less surface area in contact with the water at any given time.

[Edited on 3-24-2015 by Darkstar]

neptunium - 23-3-2015 at 22:20

excelent remark Darkstar ! i was only pointing out the theory since the question was theorytical in nature . it is true that Li is THE most electro positive perfect for high amps battery .. and because of its smaller size remain bonded longer than bigger atoms at higher temperature...
Point taken!

vmelkon - 26-3-2015 at 07:52

What about chickens? Why don't chickens explode?

Molecular Manipulations - 26-3-2015 at 09:48

If you watched 21 Jump Street you'd know chickens do explode.

neptunium - 26-3-2015 at 15:07

why cant you explode? this is getting a bit silly now

[Edited on 26-3-2015 by neptunium]

blargish - 26-3-2015 at 15:55

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Semi-related, it's funny that this thread happened to pop up, as yesterday I was around tons of granite, out at Enchanted Rock, a very large exposed dome of pink granite fairly close to where I live.

Is that an exposed batholith? Cool to have a nice geological feature close to where you live