Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Many chemicals will be forbidden in the USA???

Many chemicals will be forbidden in the USA???

woelen - 1-3-2006 at 07:43

I found a very bad news flash on the site of a well-known supplier in the USA:

http://www.unitednuclear.com/legalaction.htm

If this becomes true, then even for common chemicals like sulphur, sodium benzoate or salicylates are forbidden for the general public. Also any fine metal powder will be forbidden for the general public and also any oxidizer like KMnO4, KNO3, KClO3, and a few more.

How serious is this ????

This would be a really sad thing for the US-based chemistry hobbyists and how long will it take before this arrives in Europe?

Swany - 1-3-2006 at 11:43

Many people who practice pyrotechnics are well aware of the lawsuit against the company, Firefox Enterprises (I think). It has been in progress for about a year. We now know we know that the CSPC belives in their self-richeous crusade, and they do not seem to be dettered easily. I really don't know how it will turn out. Personally, I am stockpiling.

In closing, it appears to be serious, and we are really pissed off. :mad:

unionised - 1-3-2006 at 12:16

How long before the US stops singing about "the land of the free?

Here in the UK making fireworks is illegal anyway but that lawsuit seems to be penalising people for no valid reason.
What unitednuclear need is a lawyer who makes his own pyrotechnics.

vulture - 1-3-2006 at 14:19

I thought every US citizen needs a gun to protect him/herself?

Why do government goons need to protect people when they can get guns?

I know this is silly, but you get the point I'm trying to make.

mrjeffy321 - 1-3-2006 at 15:01

How long has this been going on [specifically in reguards to United nuclear and "criminal legal action"]?
I see it is at the top of their list on the home page, so it must have just happened.

This is insane!
Banning the sale/distribution of nitrates, sulfur, [per]Chlorates, powdered metals, ...
However, it doesnt restrict making the items yourself....yet.

How hard would it be to just play their game and get "a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF"?

Magpie - 1-3-2006 at 15:15

Rant...

The CSPC wants everyone to have a pillow strapped to their ass in case they should fall. More to the point these bureacrats like to eat, pay mortgages, and send their progeny to college so they will keep restricting US citizens in evermore creative ways. :mad:

End Rant

S.C. Wack - 1-3-2006 at 15:44

Old news without new news for some time.

http://www.firefox-fx.com/CPSC.htm

Even with the chemical and apparatus controls now in place in the name of public safety, in the future the present will be seen as a golden time of wild unregulation and opportunity outside of universities and businesses, like we view the past now. Sadly, only a Libertarian swing can stop this in the US, and this won't happen.

Take advantage of good things while you can, because they don't last.

The_Davster - 1-3-2006 at 16:35

I really feel for you guys down in the states, once it was Canada who seemed horrible for these hobbies, now 'the land of the free' is worse than Canada

chemoleo - 1-3-2006 at 17:08

Well... I dont see that much the problem.
Here in Europe, at least in the UK or germany, I never was quite so restricted. Granted, you could never buy outright NaClO3, KClO3, KNO3, metal powders and so on. However... with I am a fish's list, all thing's are possible, and I feel quite liberated!
But then... how long will these vendors sell chemicals (which are, granted, for other purposes) until some 'authority' forbids it???

What bothers me more is ebay (ebay.de and ebay.co.uk) recently. They used to be really good for buying glassware, even chemicals (particularly for ebay.de). These days they have COMPLETELY cut the section on 'Labor und Wissenschaftbedarf', which is laboratory and science-needs (at ebay.de). This has progressively gotten worse, I observed it continuously although I didnt buy. These days you can't buy a simple Liebig condenser anymore, 3 years ago you didnt know which offer to chose becasue there were so many. What has happened? You cant even buy erlenmeyers. Did they move that section somewhere else? It just sucks to observe this, they cut down on all sellers. If you are LUCKY you can buy some CuSO4, or FeSO4. Big fuckin deal.
I AM actually considering writing to ebay to find out what is goijng on.

Good thing I bought stuff while I still could.
Still I am quite worried, the fucking fascists are everywhere. As if this will cut down stupidity-induced deaths. Why dont' they forbid driving, or petrol or whatever? Smoking for starters? Alcohol? Chain saws? Cycling? Whatever?

It is so upsetting really. How do these fucking bureaucrats think the clever minds of the society will continue to appear, if all science that is done on an amateur-scale is not permitted? How do they think that fascination for science can be purely derived from dry theoretical study? I studied many years, but what realllly really did it for me is the fact that I could try things out for myself. Restricting this, how many other people will instead develop no interest in these things at all, while for instance becoming a fuckin banker or laywer?
Great society that is.

No wonder all the great minds were in the time when things were widely available (next to the fact of course that those were the days where the low-hanging fruits were picked).

Still - I think, society, European or otherwise, is going GROSSLY wrong.

I should write a letter to the E.P. really. Even my boss thought I should.

<end of rant>
<feel better now>
<or not

>

[Edited on 2-3-2006 by chemoleo]

S.C. Wack - 1-3-2006 at 17:42

Business & Industrie>Medizin & Labor>Labor, Mess- & Prüftechnik>Laborzubehör

etc. This happened with the US ebay a year or so ago and freaked me out as well. Just a move. I don't see ebay resisting much pressure to drop these if someone makes a case that they feel is compelling.

chemoleo - 1-3-2006 at 18:13

Oh wow, thank you, Du hast meinen Tag wieder gut gemacht!!!
Thanks a lot.

Still ... at least part of my rant still holds.

Just wait... it won't take long until the fascist cut that source down, too.
I've seen it with others (dechema and such), it's only a question of time

DeAdFX - 1-3-2006 at 19:09

Bah no way in hell I would get a ATFE lisence for pyrotechnics. Science is a way to satisfy curiousty not a paper work fest fiasco.

I really hate how the world is going with this you have to be certified to do this task in order to pursue it. Why doesn't the government get right to the point and tell me that I do not have the right to breathe the air without a proper liscence and air filter.

I think the people in the 1800's-early 1900's enjoyed science so much because there was no MTV. In other words there weren't a bunch of god damn whiny ass fucktard teenagers concerned about sniffing cociane off a hookers ass. Now we have a bunch of god damn ass clowns thinking they are gangsters. Society and the media promote being useless slabs of meat and condem intelligent people.

""""Even with the chemical and apparatus controls now in place in the name of public safety, in the future the present will be seen as a golden time of wild unregulation and opportunity outside of universities and businesses, like we view the past now. Sadly, only a Libertarian swing can stop this in the US, and this won't happen.""""

I am from the US and I notice that in US history classes we love to condem the past. I have a feeling 20 years from now amature scientists/pyrotechnics will be viewed as another evil on level with hitler/terrorist/arabs with bombs straped to their asses/meth cooks/etc. The CSPC will be viewed on level with Rosa parks/sit ins/black civil rights/day workers being legal in the US and so forth...

[Edited on 2-3-2006 by DeAdFX]

IrC - 1-3-2006 at 19:18

I lost my most favorite and best of the best madsci ebay sellers, Heruur, due to his selling yag laser modules from old surplus rangefinders. No bullshit, I just managed to snag one before they actually booted him. He tried the other one, yahoo I think, for a couple weeks and gave up as nobody much was there. All the buyers focus on ebay. More than a third of all my best madsci stuff I bought from him, and it has been crap at best ever since. I don't know where he found the stuff he listed but I will never forgive ebay for booting him. If I actually had anywhere to go I wouldn't even deal with them anymore. It is all going to hell here fast. The bullshit part of it all is as far as I know there is not one documented case of anyone using any of this in a terror act here.

Real terrorists are going to use real explosives, and improvised anything is going to take such large amounts surely they could find out without eliminating all private science where the quantities of items purchased are a few ounces of whatever. We all know this, they all know this, so what is the real true fucking agenda going on here? I include the united nuclear post I just read in this question.

Chris The Great - 1-3-2006 at 19:22

Basically, if we want to do anything now we'll either have to
A: sign a form so they can raid our house at any time to make sure we're not doing anything "dangerous" with our liebigs
B: steal everything to cause the companies supporting the government to loose profit, and the FBI to shit it's pants everytime some 16 year old hijacks a truck with 20,000 pounds of HE.

I say we revolt and do B.

I said it before on RS a few days ago, but I'm sick of a society that condemns personal responsibility, has no respect for individual rights, and makes it so that we have to dream of certain procedures or relate the experiences of SWIM.
I asked the question there, and I'll ask it again here. Are you going to stand around and talk and whine while the government strips away our rights on it's way to a police state? Or are you going to get up, stand up for your beliefs and DO something?

BromicAcid - 1-3-2006 at 19:29

Changing the government these days is about as difficult as starting your own unless you are some trampled on racial minority with a religous excuse. I'd jump ship but we are rapidly running out of feasible places to go in the first world countries.

That time magazine cover that was in the thread "Have you seen this Kewl" has a story in it about how America is loosing scientists coming into the field because there are no more heros in the science industry and that there needs to be a new scientist hero. Well.... I must say... not with this repressive atmosphere. Where is our modern chemistry utopia? I mean, the whole world revolves around chemistry now, you would expect from that prespective that chemistry would be popular among the populace but instead chemists are viewed as inherently evil or with an ulterior motive unless they are firmly endentured to a large company. Gehh... I don't think I made the point I was going for, see why I don't normally respond to threads like this?

Anyway, let's try to get some people to donate. Wish there was a more centralized donation purpose though, it seems we have to fight each fight as its own individual occurance and there is no central place to fight for us. As such this is turning into an expensive decentralized endevor.

Chris The Great - 1-3-2006 at 19:41

Quote:

Originally posted by BromicAcid
Changing the government these days is about as difficult as starting your own unless you are some trampled on racial minority with a religous excuse. I'd jump ship but we are rapidly running out of feasible places to go in the first world countries.

Come on, it couldn't be THAT hard to hold Congress at gunpoint and force them to dissolve the DEA, CSPC, etc and repeal the patriot act. And give $50 cash to every American so they love us for it

I agree with you on centralizing. That was the central gist of my revolution inticing RS post as well (though it was about less legal options), getting together and organizing. Nothing is going to get accomplished if we all try to do stuff individually. The government will just keep stepping on us one by one.

Also, Vulture, we can't protect ourselves anymore because the government is slowly but surely disarming the general population. Criminals are excluded since they get their guns illegally anyway. One loss of rights leads straight to another....

mrjeffy321 - 1-3-2006 at 19:48

Bush is saying now that the United States need to pick up the pace in Science and Math, we are falling behind. Well what do you expect if the only "science" a kid will see if the stuff they teach in school, which is pathetic.

I walk into my Chemistry lab, and because of my person experience, I am head and sholders above everyone else in the room, no because I am some Chemistry genius, but it is because I know what an erlynmeyer flask is (as opposed to my lab partner). It is person experimentation that will develop people's interest in science and with the ability to do this, more and more people will loose interest in science.

Just to see what it would take to play their game and get the stupid license required to buy the stuff, I found the application form.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f540013.pdf
Aside from the $200 fee you have to pay, they want to where exactly what you plan on doing, where you plan on doing it, and when your going to do it.
How do I know all this when I am filling out some form? One day, I might feel in the black powder mood, another evening, maybe rocketry.
Plus, as soon as you even apply for the license, your probably on some watch list anyway.

[Edited on 2-3-2006 by mrjeffy321]

IrC - 1-3-2006 at 19:51

One thought I had was related to ebay's booting Heruur. He was selling Yag modules. Here you have a frame with rod, and flashlamp, with end and trigger leads coming out. No electronics, no nothing else. Yet they boot him. I just bought several rods off ebay, and several flashlamps, trigger transformers, and caps, etc.. they seem to be just fine to sell right? So why do they boot a seller doing nothing more than the others? I had to build my strobe circuit and housing, and all that, to use Heruur's unit. I can do the same damn thing with all these parts I just bought. The point I am trying to make is why is it wrong to sell nukes but ok to sell all the pieces with assembly instructions? Do they think the hour or two you need to assemble a nuke makes it more ok or more safe than the other guy who shaved 30 minutes off the assembly time? OK so it wasn't nukes but you get the point I think. One person sells 50 different kinds of glassware no problems but the one selling a 3 neck reaction flask is booted also. I don't even use them for the intended purpose, plasma experiments and the like are more fun and the glass with openings is just perfect for introducing electrodes and pumping down. Yet in Texas they would send me up the river?

If not now, soon I am sure. Where the hell do they come up with their guidelines, whether ebay or uncle fuckhead sam or whoever? Again for clarity my point is really that we all know how stupid this all is! They are squashing all to do nothing to protect anyone. And all this based upon some kind of set of guidelines that don't even make common logical sense. I do know this, in the near future I guess I will be learning how to make things the way the old alchemists used to. Less bullshit! More fun! That is until someone using imminent domain figures out the place I spent my life building a lab can be used to build condos and they boot me out. Land of the fucking free, or brave (you can't buy any chemicals you might hurt yourself, we are so very afraid), my ass!

innervision - 1-3-2006 at 20:48

IrC, it's not getting any better so if you find somebody good on ebay, it might be a good idea to contact him and get some personal contact info so you can still do business outside of ebay.

Chris the Great, do you really think dreaming and swimming will get anybody off the hook? That's probably worthless in court.

IrC - 1-3-2006 at 20:55

I did so, but losing his market made him lose his living doing it, so he could not go out and find the super neat impossible to find stuff anymore, so he quit.

Silicium - 1-3-2006 at 21:03

So...seeing that there is nothing that we can really do to prevent this from happing (perhaps we can protest...all 50 of us

) what are we going to do for chemicals?

innervision - 1-3-2006 at 21:33

Ouch. I didn't think of that. I guess buying the rest of their stock is all you could do then, but that's better than nothing.

Silicium, we'll do what we do for drugs: buy them in the underground market at an inflated price and start a whole lot more organized crime, which will take more money from the government, so they'll hammer us a little harder because they are too dumb to see how to back out of it.

It kind of reminds me of a monkey sticking his hand in a jar grabbing some things, and not being able to take his fist back out, but he's too dumb to let go.

Silicium - 1-3-2006 at 22:28

lol...I guess I better make my christmas list early this year

, but even then were gonna run out eventually even if we do stock up. I really dont hope we have to resort to extracting chemicals from nature or common house hold products...

Chris The Great - 1-3-2006 at 23:26

Perhaps black market sales of chemicals will be increasing over the next few years? Think about it, no taxes

Innervision, I didn't mean it would get me off the hook. What I'm saying is that I'm sick of living in a world where we are so afraid of jackbooted thugs breaking down our door and arresting us and detaining us without trial that we do things like that. Face it, with the government able to hold it's own citizens without trial, does ANYTHING we do help us in court, when there isn't going to be a court? Maybe if you're lucky and they say you're just making drugs (no solid evidence of course) you can get off with 25 years, but at least you got a trial. If they say you are one of the 325,000 terrorist suspects on the list, well, say goodbye to any right you might have thought you had (you don't have any).

This is the world we live in, and it is only getting worse.

evil_lurker - 2-3-2006 at 00:06

The war on drugs, especially methamphetamine is what has caused most of the problems with chemical restrictions in the USA... call it a chemical phobia if you will.

The CPSC is doing its best to help kill the pyro suppliers, but I doubt they will be successful. Sulfer is a common chemical used as a soil additive and antifungal dusting agent. Sodium benzoate is a food preservative. Potassium permanganate is still used in water filters. Hell if the language of the statute is vague enough you won't be able to purchase aspirin without a BATF license.

There may be one out, and that is the CPSC only covers consumer transactions... business transactions are exempted.

Because of potential liabilities many chem suppliers out there now will only sell to businesses... specifically those that are incorporated. If the trend continues, I imagine sooner or later that amatuer chemists in the USA will need to learn business 101 and incorporate just so they can aquire any reagents needed to conduct their research...

innervision - 2-3-2006 at 00:14

I don't think there's nearly enough demand for (non-drug precursor) chems for it to actually become widespread blackmarketed, but if the government squeezes our balls with the death grip, who knows?

>>"think about it, no taxes" Look at the drug black market. They tax you like a MFer considering the costs of production. Besides, the gangsters/organizers would tax you anyways to work in their part of town.

rights... at least they look good on paper.

I am a fish - 2-3-2006 at 02:53

I notice that "salicylate compounds" made the list of restricted chemicals. Does that mean that the US government will be conducting door-to-door raids for aspirin (acetyl salicylate) possession?

hinz - 2-3-2006 at 04:46

If the big chem suppliers won't sell to amateur scientists any more, we have to make our basic chemicals ourselves. This would need some more time for one synthesis, but then we are independent and no one can take us the chemicals away. When I try to synt. a chemical compound I always try to do this with chemicals which cause the less trouble to get. I think most of us do it in the same way.
But when I look at the chemical structure of the materials in my environment, I see that nearly all base chemicals can be made out of them.

For example acetone: Oxidise EtOH (whiskey in worst case or self fermented) to acetic acid, add this to pot ash and heat the pottasium acetate to 500°C, collect the destillate.
Or benzoic acid/Some kind of benzolate can be made of PET plastic by hydroxide ester bond breakage.

Those synths mostly have low yields and have a big time cosumtion, but in the worst case you can only get your chems in this way.

Of course some chemicals still make poblems like H2SO4 from CaSO4 and phosphorous from phosphate. But when the time is come and even sulphuric acid is unavailable, some of ous will do some research in these subjets and I'm sure they'll have sucess with more or less equipment.

For lab equipment there is already some kind of black market/second hand market and I think It will be difficult to regulate glassware since most of it can be substituted (it's impressive how meth cooks cook their meth with simple equipment, just google for "meth lab", there are a lot of pictures by "good" fucking DEA-men which have terminated some "bad" meth labs and are very proud of it) by household things or can get by friends which work in research/universities.

[Edited on 2-3-2006 by hinz]

Swany - 2-3-2006 at 06:39

Either way it turns out, I am stocking up. Pyrochems first, as these would be the first to go.

When you get a 50lb drum, it gets much cheaper. Plus, resale value may go up a bit in 5 years.

evil_lurker - 2-3-2006 at 06:50

I dunno what the shelf life is on the oxidizers... ya better check.

IrC - 2-3-2006 at 07:10

They will get my aspirin when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers!

Silicium - 2-3-2006 at 07:24

Ah...crap I didn't think about the shelf life of some chemicals...sigh!!! :mad:

Swany - 2-3-2006 at 12:37

Long enough for my lifetime. I won't be storing ammonium chlorate.

vulture - 2-3-2006 at 13:10

Donating won't help.

This only reinforces the catch-22 situation. Modern societies are regulated by law, which is complicated and within the grasp of a few select persons.

Donating money for a defense fund only leads to lawyers vs lawyers battling eachother to death, choking down huge amounts of money and further reinforcement of the legislative lobby, so to speak.

I have to say I'm currently spending more time with photography than my chemistry hobby and the legal and societal repercussions are an important reason.

My lab remains stocked and equipped as ever though, so I might just be a sleeper.

Any front or action regarding this will have to involve educational institutions and given their inherent political connections it will be at best hard to get them to support controversial scientific activities.

Magpie - 2-3-2006 at 13:18

When I got into home chemistry about 2 years ago I thought things could only get worse so panicked a little and began agressively stocking up. I concentrated on equipment as I figured that, if worse comes to worse, I can make the chemicals.

After 2 years now I pretty much have the equipment I want and really didn't have any trouble getting it. Ebay has a huge selection of glassware and it doesn't seem to be tapering off one bit. When I recently searched "Business & Industrial >Healthcare, Lab, & Life Science>lab supplies> chemicals" I came up with 614 hits. To me, this looks wonderful.

True, an individual can't buy chemicals from the scientific supply houses. This sucks. But their prices are always so high that they would be my source of last resort anyway. I don't seem to have any trouble buying equipment from the major supply houses. I may not be able to set up an account but they are glad to take my credit card.

So I feel as S. C. Wack. In some ways we never had it so good. We have this forum and access to almost unlimited chemistry information. This may indeed be looked back on as the golden age for home chemists.

We do have to live with society's persecution of our hobby and falsely judging our motives. Some also think that it is a big risk just participating. I agree that this is an ugly reality. We should put the blame where it squarely belongs: illegal drug makers and terrorists. LE, for the most part, is just trying to do its job. It is easy to misplace our venom on them instead of the root cause.

Backlashes

MadHatter - 2-3-2006 at 18:58

Like you Magpie, I'm pretty well stocked up on everything that I want or need. And if that
doesn't work, I'll make what I need. That's why I encourage people to post chemical or equipment
manufacturing methods, no matter how inefficient or troublesome the technique is. It may
come down to that some day.

Already, backlashes, no matter how small, are starting to popup in the USA. No, I don't mean
our hobbies, although that may happen eventually. Some examples:

1) The US Supreme Court's decision(without the new justices, Roberts and Alito) that allows
private property to be condemned in favour of developers who promise a more taxable base
to local politicians. One group is now trying to have Justice Souter's property condemned and
taken away. BB & T Bank has vowed not to finance ANY project where the property has been
seized by "eminent domain".

2) Remember Hurricane Katrina ? Down there in New Orleans, the mayor(SHITHEAD !)
ordered that guns be confiscated from private citizens after the storm, based on his own
personal view of gun owners. A US Federal judge ordered the confiscation stopped and
the guns returned. In New Hampshire, some state legislators who have vowed "Not In My
BackYard", have introduced a bill to make it a Class A Felony, with appropiate penalties for
any LEO or politician to attempt to confiscate firearms from people without good reason.

These 2 examples don't seem like much but the forces that be should take a message from
it - we're tired of your BULLSHIT ! CPSC, are you listening ASSHOLES ?

joeflsts - 2-3-2006 at 19:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
When I got into home chemistry about 2 years ago I thought things could only get worse so panicked a little and began agressively stocking up. I concentrated on equipment as I figured that, if worse comes to worse, I can make the chemicals.

After 2 years now I pretty much have the equipment I want and really didn't have any trouble getting it. Ebay has a huge selection of glassware and it doesn't seem to be tapering off one bit. When I recently searched "Business & Industrial >Healthcare, Lab, & Life Science>lab supplies> chemicals" I came up with 614 hits. To me, this looks wonderful.

True, an individual can't buy chemicals from the scientific supply houses. This sucks. But their prices are always so high that they would be my source of last resort anyway. I don't seem to have any trouble buying equipment from the major supply houses. I may not be able to set up an account but they are glad to take my credit card.

So I feel as S. C. Wack. In some ways we never had it so good. We have this forum and access to almost unlimited chemistry information. This may indeed be looked back on as the golden age for home chemists.

We do have to live with society's persecution of our hobby and falsely judging our motives. Some also think that it is a big risk just participating. I agree that this is an ugly reality. We should put the blame where it squarely belongs: illegal drug makers and terrorists. LE, for the most part, is just trying to do its job. It is easy to misplace our venom on them instead of the root cause.

For the most part I agree with everything that you have written. It's just too easy to blame law enforcement for the state we find ourselves in. But if you be very honest they are just doing their job. The real issue isn't law enforcement... It's US. You see we live in a society that has decided that we're never at fault and it is always someone else that made us do something stupid.

The next time you slip and fall think long and hard about whose fault it is......

Joe

Chris The Great - 2-3-2006 at 20:43

Oh, it's more than that. I find our society to be the most devious idea off seizing absolute power ever concieved. The central core is the general idea that you know what is going on and are well informed. Once this idea pops into the sheeples head, they will NEVER need to look deeper into something. By providing controversy, the sheeple go "oh, bush is bad" (NOT government is bad) and feel like they know all the governments tricks. And, because they "know" this 99.99% of them will never look much deeper into the issue. People question the government, but they never really get the big picture because their attention span has been shortened. Which brings me to my second point.

Television has shortened the attention span and intellectual capability of most sheeple, and at the same time slowly but surely cements in societal values. Mostly, it tells you to consume and buybuybuy, to fear the evil terrorists who are out to get you (through either the news or TV shows about herioc (and sexy) government terorist fighters) and to simply not do much. Why do something when you can watch someone else doing it, without having to get up. This of course leads to idolizing celebrities, as opposed to actually having an interesting life of your own. This idolization makes them forget their poor, empty lives consisting of working and working until they can retire at age 70, and then watch TV all day as opposed to just in the evenings, and so prevents them from going "hey, what the hell is wrong with this society?"

Somewhere in this ADD hyperactive orgy of flashing colours all ability, and most importantly WANT and NEED to think dissappeared. Ever wonder why there is hardly anything with a plot in it there days? Because the sheeple do not want to think. They want to have things happen to them because they are to legarthic and used to watching others to do anything themselves. Thinking is hard, why should the sheeple think when they can turn on a box with lots of explosions and gunfights to think for them?

Our society has made a population of mindless zombies, who think that they are smart and individual and in control, when in fact they have had all WANT of thought and action removed from them. They THINK they know what is going on, but they don't. That is the key thing here.

Such a society will never repel against it's captors. Sick, twisted genious. Now, can you blame it solely on the government? No, but they sure as hell are taking full advantage of it. It seems to perfectly done to be an accident.

This goes far beyond simply not having the ability to buy chemicals often used in pyro. It goes far beyond that. It is the slow, creeping clutch of tyranny seeping over the world behind democracies that are no more than a farce. The reason nobody noticed is for the above reasons, and also because it is slow. What happens with a slow plot? People fall asleep or look at something else. And bit by bit we've slipped into a world where the US government can arrest and detain it's own citizens without trial, where the UK bans all (or nearly all) private firearm ownership, etc. But since it only comes bit by bit, nobody really notices, much less does anything.

Lets face it, you can't protest that sort of thing. Who is going to join you when you're saying that the ENTIRE government needs to be thrown out? We're not talking an election or something, that won't change a thing, you need to get rid of most of the entire system.
Canada showed this nicely in the last election, we voted in a Conservative rather than Liberal government and within weeks things are back to normal with the exception that the colours are a little different. Politicians merely say whatever the population wants to hear just so they can get elected. And yet, they don't hold the power, the unelected bureaucracy holds it.

My current feeling on this, considering the number of replies here and discussions going on at E&W, and basically the general mood of all the educated/well armed people on the net, is that we are getting quite sick of this. No, beyond sick. People are getting mad.

So, whatcha gunna do?

DeAdFX - 2-3-2006 at 22:39

Ahh Chris I took a look at the rouge sci link you provided. The removal of words part was interesting. I think its more of a replacing of words with meaningless fucking terms. For instance the english language is getting butchered left and right by a bunch of ignorant fucking rappers. Everyday I hear some fucking moron saying "WUZ UP GANGSTA G GGG G UNIT". G-Unit is one of the many plagues of this world that churn out repulsive crap. Christ how fucking difficult is it to say "Hello"? However I could learn to not use fuck every other word... Sigh.

[Edited on 3-3-2006 by DeAdFX]

woelen - 3-3-2006 at 09:39

CPSC proudly presents a recent achievement ...... http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06094.html

Again one source removed and out of business.... :mad:

They are really serious. This company sold powdered Al, KClO4 and S, all of which are "used to make highly dangerous fireworks, such as M-80's, quarter sticks.....".

The CPSC really is proud of what they are doing. They protect our innocent children against the evils of dangerous materials and unsafe products.

[Edited on 3-3-06 by woelen]

M-80s

MadHatter - 6-3-2006 at 00:27

IMHO, the tubes for M-80s and other salute type tubes were probably the clincher. These, of
course, in conjunction with the other components. I've noticed that most suppliers have
rules they apply to customers:

1) Will not ship more than 2 LBS Al powder in a calendar year unless the customer submits
proof of a BATFE explosives license.
2) Will not ship Al powder and (per)chlorate in the same order.
3) Will not ship flash components in separate orders - e.g., customer buys Al powder in 1st
order but 2nd order for KClO4 is refused.
4) Will sell Al powder, but not (per)chlorates, or vice-versa. I've seen this with eBay sellers.

Most suppliers apply these rules to salute tubes, end caps, and fuse as well.

In addition, most will not sell components if they suspect that this type fireworks, based on
items ordered or order history, is being manufactured illegally.

Personally, if I was in that business I wouldn't sell the tubes at all, given the principal use.

I googled the net, but couldn't find any additional information on the buyer in Illinois.
It's likely that buyer got busted and rolled over on Iowa Pyro Supply.

I have nothing but derision for the CPSC, but it appears that the buyer and/or seller made it
easy for them. I'm not sure who's the biggest DUMBASS here - the buyer for not getting
components from different suppliers, or the supplier who allowed the buyer to purchase
all of the components.

[Edited on 2006/3/6 by MadHatter]

IrC - 6-3-2006 at 02:07

"Most suppliers apply these rules to salute tubes, end caps, and fuse as well. In addition, most will not sell components if they suspect that this type fireworks, based on items ordered or order history, is being manufactured illegally.

Personally, if I was in that business I wouldn't sell the tubes at all, given the principal use."

Can anyone show me more than one death per year per country due to making home made fireworks? Not including accidents with legally purchased, legally manufactured ones. Just home made. How about just one death per year per country? Ok, I give up. Think about this whole subject. Many people own carbide cannons which is a safe fun hobby and for which the sale of this fuse is reasonable and needed. In short - justified. None of it makes sense in relation to any actual harm caused anywhere on earth. Right? Illegal to sell cardboard tubes? What if I want to make custom short kaleidescopes? Or build model rockets? I do not agree with Vulture about not donating but not for the reason he disagrees with the concept, as I am inclined to agree his point is correct. Rather, I see the parallel with the gun lobby. Guns only kill people. Fireworks are not meant to hurt anyone, just good clean fun. Not for going out and doing drive by shootings, beer runs at gunpoint, drug deals, or in general any of the things which create the terror and intimidation everyone living in any city in the US faces each and every day.

Instead of budgeting monies for policing the gangs and city streets more so people can live decently lets give the money to the assholes going after what really is statistically a very safe, fun, and harmless hobby. So why is it that more murders occur in US cities than Iraq? Guns. Why are guns legal but cardboard tubes are not? Money poured into lobby groups and lawyers to fight the liberals and socialists each and every time they try to outlaw guns, so you can see my point where I differ from vulture. The money poured in keeps guns legal, and causes more US deaths yearly than third world countries at war. I defy anyone to show me statistics where anyone making fireworks for personal fun has actually caused harm.

What? You mean there may have been that one guy a few years ago who blew off his hand or set his bushes on fire? I wonder how that compares to the number of murders caused by legally owned guns? I am not against gun ownership mind you, I owned 27 guns as a teenager and have owned legal machineguns in my life, and have lived in places where I carried one everywhere and slept with them under the pillow since you never know. So when I bring all this gun information into it I hope all can see the real point I am getting at here, and that is quite simply how in the hell can they allow guns to be sold when 50 thousand people are being murdered yearly in the US alone and bust some person selling fucking carboard tubes? Unequal laws and unequal representation is the term we are looking for here.

Think about it.
Fireworks - guns.
Illegal - legal.
One death maybe but likely just a blown off finger - over 50,000 KIA/year.
No defense fund and no representation - money out the ass to defend guns.

Does anyone see a pattern here? The point is these assholes going after chem and cardboard tube sellers don't give a shit about safety, or they would worry more about the things killing hundreds daily not some dipshit who might blow off his finger (while the statistics of injury or death to the fireworks hobby is impressively lower than guns, sports, going to school, riding a school bus to school or a football game, a football game, and so on ... you get the point). Lets see, what else can we add to the list which they think nothing of that has ten thousand percent greater injuiries/year than home made fireworks here?

jpsmith123 - 6-3-2006 at 03:59

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
CPSC proudly presents a recent achievement ...... http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06094.html

Again one source removed and out of business.... :mad:

I wonder who the customer was? I wouldn't be surprised if it was a case of entrapment, where an operative placed a few orders, convinced the company he was trustworthy or legitimate, and then finally ordered a "kit".

In any case, I see it as part of the general trend toward a fascist police state in the U.S.

innervision - 6-3-2006 at 22:47

Quote:

No defense fund and no representation - money out the ass to defend guns.

I see exactly where you are going with this, but think of it this way: Guns really are needed to protect your life these days. The moment guns were created, it was impossible to undo it. The evil will always have them, so the "victims" must also. Wherever life is at stake there will be money backing it.

As for the tubes, they are obviously going to be used for illegal noise makers. There's no question about that. Seeing as how the law is against them [m-80s], they really shouldn't have sold them. Tubes can be made ridiculously easily by the customer anyway, so why the need to risk selling them?

As for the laws about fireworks, specifically rockets and salutes; they are dumb. They should have never been outlawed (maybe the unwatchful parents should have). Period. Of course limiting the amount of chems needed to make them might have been a good idea. What amateur needs a few hundred pounds of kClO4? ...But what amateur wouldn't need a few lbs.?

IrC - 6-3-2006 at 23:42

Of course we need guns to protect us from the criminals they keep catching and letting go. But what good are they when they are passing laws to make you a bigger criminal to use them? I have seen people face 15 years no parole for pointing a gun at a larger person who had already hurt them by smashing their knee, in a totally unprovoked situation, where the attacker did not know the injured party nor had said party done anything that could have even remotely justified their being attacked. This person had their kneecap smashed and could not stand up, and was physically a fourth in size and strength of the attacker, who by the way was high on unknown substances at the time. Since the attacker was not carrying a weapon, the state of Arizona charged the injured innocent person with agravated assault with a deadly weapon. 15 years no parole, by the same lawmakers who let go on parole after 5 years a felon who took a life during a crime, merely because the criminal knows how to lie and play the system while the decent person stays honest and gets raped by the same legal system. True story! So tell me just exactly why guns are so important. They have already taken away all your guns and you don't even know it!

Lawmakers avoid the political loss and fallout removing your right to use them merely by letting you keep them to think you are safe but if you are not a sworn law officer and you use it there are very few circumstances where you will not be facing worse time than the asshole trying to rob and kill you. I can give you 52 years of stories and personal experience on this. You just think you have guns. Use them and you will wish the attacker had beaten you to death rather than face the jail time you will be given. What? They don't tell anyone out loud how they came up with a way through laws to remove your guns while still getting your votes because you were fooled into thinking you still had them? Think about it. There is not a word I just wrote than is not true, and even truer than I am implying here. Criminals know this but for some reason keep getting let go. Why you may ask? They know how to play the system. They kill, lie, cheat, steal, and so on. An honest person gets reamed by facing up to their actions and admitting the true facts of their actions, thereby getting reamed by the same system. Especially if they are not rich and cannot afford to "buy" their "justice". If you do not agree you quite simply have not lived and seen and experienced long enough.

Back to the cardboard tube thing. Let me make this very clear. Cardboard cylinders are not illegal! Steak knives are far more dangerous and have killed more people, yet they are not out busting the kitchenware sellers. Yes you are right there clearly is a point in saying the tubes are for fireworks. But they bust them all, and this means tubes used for starburst displays and similar fireworks. Meaning they don't want you to have any fireworks at all. Consider another point. What good is being legislated into zombiedom where all you can do legally is grow fat vegetating on a couch watching MTV? When they finally suceed in making anything a crime that may be a fun and rewarding hobby what the hell is left to use as a reason to live? When they get done making us all safe there will be so little left fun to do we will wish we had done ourselves in doing something that gave us enjoyment while we still could get the stuff to do whatever it was. We are in the process of losing even free speech, soon there will be no websites left teaching anyone any more science than how to make marshmellow pie. Hey wait. We might suffocate eating to much of that better outlaw it before it gets us too. What bothers me the most is I think I am not that far off the mark here, and it may be already worse than I say and far too late to do anything about it. Maybe some fireworks should not be made, especially if they can blow off a hand. But I am sure if you look into it you will get busted for selling things to make or for making even relatively safe fireworks. Meaning they are all against the law to make no matter how small and safe they may be. All this merely because they burn, fizzle, or explode. Of course the mindset here is if it explodes no matter how small it may be, it must somehow be terrorist related. Knee jerk over reaction, this is what they are doing. When they get done pray you can still get the chems to make a childs volcano experiment. But of course don't build one unless you have onsite governmental supervision, and all the right fees have been paid and all the right permits have been issued. Soon the only amateur scientists left will all be living on their own island far far away.

[Edited on 7-3-2006 by IrC]

woelen - 7-3-2006 at 07:57

IrC, what you are telling about fireworks is true in the Netherlands for as long as I can remember. It is forbidden in the Netherlands to do any pyrotechnics with home-made fireworks. Period. Commercial fireworks only may be lighted on Dec. 31 and Jan 1. Possesion of fireworks on any date, other than the few days between Dec. 26 and Jan 2 is forbidden, beit cmmercial stuff or home-made stuff. Home-made stuff is forbidden always.
On the other hand, possesion of all the chemicals is not forbidden. Also, having iodine, red phosphorous and a bunch of other chemicals is not a problem. However, as soon as you use some of your chems for pyrotechnic experiments, then you run the risk of having to give all your chemicals to a local police officer.

If someone would check your house and find e.g. KClO4 and S, then you do not need to have a problem, as long as there are no items at your house, which can be used to make fireworks (e.g. tubes, fuses). Also, large quantities of those chemicals at the same place also are suspect.

IrC - 7-3-2006 at 10:35

I guess in a nutshell my real complaint is the way LE does business. They should not be busting people like the thought police just because they can think of evil you may do with what you have. Rather they should bust those doing things criminal. By this I mean there are many lawful things an amateur scientist can do with all the same ingredients that someone else can use for the commission of crimes. I would love to play with making phosphides in the area of energy research. However I cannot afford to become a university or government lab so my science is home made. Then along comes LE who see me doing something legitimate and they start thinking of the evil I might do, rather they start accusing me of the evil they think all people are doing whether real or imagined, and go bust you when you have done nothing wrong. LE's job should be going after criminals, not law abiding amateur scientists. Yet their answer to their crime problem is to consider all people criminals who lack the money for the worlds best lawyers on staff 24/7. If you have ever dealt with them then you realize they believe nothing you say, think nothing anyone other than other LE members do is legal, everyone is a criminal, and so on. It is their mindset. Rather than keeping those who commit crimes in jail they let them go and spend all their time thinking of new ways to think of all people not LE as criminals. I defy anyone to prove there is any longer a difference between LE in the U.S. and the Gestapo or the KGB.

[Edited on 7-3-2006 by IrC]

The only answer

chloric1 - 7-3-2006 at 12:34

I agree with CHris the Great. Peacefull demonstrations are not affective. Violence is the only answer. A dedicated well organized team of theives/saboteaurs could reak havoc quite nicely. Additionly, they can maintain financial resources via underground distribution networks.

Chris The Great - 7-3-2006 at 16:43

The problem isn't LE in my opinion, it is the way they've been set up to work over the years by the government. Most LE think they really are helping society, not that they are crushing people in a police state. Which, in some ways is true. IRC's points about guns are very true. It isn't any one part of the system, the entire system is the problem. The cop catches the criminal and sends them to a corrupt and useless justice system. The corrupt Justice system carries out unjust laws against the people. And behind it all, the government slowly gains more and more absolute power over the population which becomes more and more zombielike by the day.

Until one day, you wake up, finally, and realize the only thing left in your life is a dull routine of a boring job and watching MTV, because you never stood up when you had a chance of actually doing something and just stood around talking. Then, the thought police knock down your door for thinking thoughts inappropriate to a citizen of the USA/UK/Australia and you spend the rest of your life in prison awaiting a trial that will never come.

So, you going to do something with those guns to make sure that the charges from using them is insignificant to the charges of what you used them for? I may seem like a nut case but what else is there left to do? You can't protest your way out of something like this, already in the UK the police can detain any group they think will become violent, which coincidentally would be your protest against certain laws. You can't protest from within jail. I'm sure other countries will soon follow their lead.
I think a "personal talk" with congress about repealing certain laws and federal organizations would yield a lot more tangible results than walking through Washington DC with some signs and slogans just to get arrested for "potential to incite violence" and have the media make it out like you are the evil guys so that the sheeple will accept more of the police state. If the media make you out to be the bad guys after your talk with congress, it won't matter since the laws still got changed (and you can have another "talk" with congress if they try changing them back).

(all hypothetical talk Mr. Gov. Agents, as usual)

Swany - 7-3-2006 at 17:29

Today I was sitting in my 'advanced physical science class' and was ignoring the watered down lecture about acids and bases (reading some organic book, good stuff), and the discussion turns to reaction rate.

Teacher: Now, some things react so fast you cant even control them, oxidisers are like this, they have oxygen to give and they are very explosive and dangerous, if you ordered some of this, you would get a knock on your door cause they'd think you were a terrorist.

Me: quickly pops heart medication to keep my heart from exploding and.... yeah.

Class: everyone looks at Swany, at least everyone who knows what Swany does in his free time, and that is a badly kept secret.

Well, I tried to look innocent, then a friend of mine said,"Swany has at least 50 pounds of oxidisers in his shed, and he hasn't been arrested yet." The teacher turns (he is a guy, stupid, and he hates me. The feeling is very mutual, as he rejected my request to go into general chemistry WITHOUT talking to me, or even thinking about it, his explination: I have never had a student who knew any chemistry, and I doubt it will change) and says Swany, I don't know about all these stories but you better watch out. Mumble grumble gubfeuahaaa I like young girls. Ok, the latter part was made up. But the former parts are totally true.

I explain that I am not going to be arrested, because oxidisers don't kill people, high explosives do. He counters with the 'fertilizer bombs', I counter with, you have no clue what your talking about. He just stared at me, (everone is quiet.. duh dun dun duhnnnn) and eventually continued with the lecture, I buried my head in the book, and all continued.

Well, that is basically the feeling. Sheer lack of knowlage, and stupidity. The teacher is exeptionally dumb.

Though, another teacher put KClO3/Sugar in a TEST TUBE, and HELD IT OVER A BURNER, WITH THE CLASS GATHERED AROUND!!! It exploded. He got glass dug out of his chest, and I dont know what else. This was a while back, but the teacher was a complete retard as well. Different teachers, mind you.

In closing, in the past 3 years I have had 3 science teachers. 2 of them dont like me, the other thinks I am a very interesting person. Incidentally, the one who liked me had be before my chemistry addiction. The one I had the KClO3 discussion with is the head science person over here, so I have friends in relitively high places. Too bad we have so many retards....

And what this has to do with the chemistry forbidding? The oxidiser story basically. The rest is an angry and, chances are, very crude rant.

I feel better now.

When another science teacher (the cool one) asked where I got KClO3, as even the school had a hard time getting it, I smiled and said I have suppliers. She said I sounded like I was talking about drugs, I concluded that KClO3 for purchase may be about as rare as cocaine in a year or three.

joeflsts - 7-3-2006 at 17:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris The Great
The problem isn't LE in my opinion, it is the way they've been set up to work over the years by the government. Most LE think they really are helping society, not that they are crushing people in a police state. Which, in some ways is true. IRC's points about guns are very true. It isn't any one part of the system, the entire system is the problem. The cop catches the criminal and sends them to a corrupt and useless justice system. The corrupt Justice system carries out unjust laws against the people. And behind it all, the government slowly gains more and more absolute power over the population which becomes more and more zombielike by the day.

Until one day, you wake up, finally, and realize the only thing left in your life is a dull routine of a boring job and watching MTV, because you never stood up when you had a chance of actually doing something and just stood around talking. Then, the thought police knock down your door for thinking thoughts inappropriate to a citizen of the USA/UK/Australia and you spend the rest of your life in prison awaiting a trial that will never come.

So, you going to do something with those guns to make sure that the charges from using them is insignificant to the charges of what you used them for? I may seem like a nut case but what else is there left to do? You can't protest your way out of something like this, already in the UK the police can detain any group they think will become violent, which coincidentally would be your protest against certain laws. You can't protest from within jail. I'm sure other countries will soon follow their lead.
I think a "personal talk" with congress about repealing certain laws and federal organizations would yield a lot more tangible results than walking through Washington DC with some signs and slogans just to get arrested for "potential to incite violence" and have the media make it out like you are the evil guys so that the sheeple will accept more of the police state. If the media make you out to be the bad guys after your talk with congress, it won't matter since the laws still got changed (and you can have another "talk" with congress if they try changing them back).

(all hypothetical talk Mr. Gov. Agents, as usual)

Excellent opinion. In addition we have to look at the mechanics behind this as well. I can't tell you how many forums I have been on that some righteous, all-knowing, chemistry professor starts to attack the posters for attempting chemical reactions at home.

His interest in your safety is second to his interest in protecting his paycheck and feeling superior. He wouldn't think twice about condemning a hobby chemist in an effort to legitmize his position in society and bolster his ego.

But I stand by my opinion that we have no-one to blame but ourselves. Either we stop asking the government to protect us or they will.

Joe

The_Davster - 7-3-2006 at 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Swany

Teacher: Now, some things react so fast you cant even control them, oxidisers are like this, they have oxygen to give and they are very explosive and dangerous, if you ordered some of this, you would get a knock on your door cause they'd think you were a terrorist.

Sounds suspiciously like what a proff of mine once said....

He was ok in other regards though, but I should see what his reaction is if I tell him I've made chlorates before.

Quote:

In closing, in the past 3 years I have had 3 science teachers. 2 of them dont like me, the other thinks I am a very interesting person. Incidentally, the one who liked me had be before my chemistry addiction. The one I had the KClO3 discussion with is the head science person over here, so I have friends in relitively high places. Too bad we have so many retards....

Teachers don't like people who know more then them,

I was lucky in school, my teachers, at least in high school, knew my hobby and were fine with it and just thought me weird, I could go to them for extra help on my projects.
"hey mrs. ________ looky what I made"
"is that...sodium?"
"yeah"
"where on earth did you get that?"
"made it, molten electrolysis of NaOH"
"...*starts laughing*...just don't kill yourself"

With all this legislation coming in these days alot of chems are being thrown out of labs, my high school lab tech knows me and was unwilling to ever give me the stuff they had to dispose of for liability reasons, but now that I am no longer there but still stop by to say hi once and a while....

..I should try again...

I miss my high school 'infamy' (to quote one teacher)...

innervision - 7-3-2006 at 20:23

Quote:

So tell me just exactly why guns are so important.

I'm not arguing that point, but while i'm talking about it, I said in life or death situations. Getting a beating is one thing. Getting killed is another. I would take a long sentence rather than be shot in the head... maybe.
I never said courts were fair. The justice system is complete shit. Another example is going to prison for a personal stash of weed.

Quote:

Soon the only amateur scientists left will all be living on their own island far far away.

Yep. It's called Alcatraz.

Swany - 7-3-2006 at 22:25

I don't think they would re-open Alcatraz just for us....

Guantanamo Bay?

Fireworks

MadHatter - 8-3-2006 at 13:50

I checked my local sate laws on fireworks manufacture. In short a person may not make
fireworks unless done so in a licensed plant. The penalty for doing so is a misdemeanor -
punishable by $1000 fine and/or 1 year in jail. It's the same for selling fireworks without
a permit. The harshest penalty is also a midsmeanor - $2000 fine and/or 2 years
in jail. That's for manufacturing fireworks after having been denied a license to do so.
Some unlicensed 'vendors' were caught selling firecrackers just before the 4th of July last
year. Some were even repeat offenders. From what I read none of them served any jail
time. Basically it was a fine and get the hell out of my courtroom type deal. Mostly, they're
considered to be nuisances and I count myself among them.

They have strict regulations on what can be manufactured in a licensed plant.
This is what cannot be made:

1) 1.3 G fireworks other than rockets and Roman candles.
2) Fireworks commonly known as "flash and sound".
3) Products utilizing potassium chlorate or explosives.

Penalty is the same as for manufacturing without a license.

Get into things like M-80s, ashcans, blockbusters, etc, and this state can impose a longer
prison sentence than the feds do for violating the "bulk salutes" explosives statute.

It's all crazy of course, but until the laws are changed, that's what we live with because of
the nannies who run our governments.

vulture - 8-3-2006 at 14:17

Funny, my professor was talking about piranha fluid the other day and mentioned it's excellent glass cleaning abilities.
He did warn us not to use acetone with it, because that would make acetonperoxide, which is "kinda explosive", as he put it.
Then he continued by casually saying it was the cheapest and easiest explosive to manufacture.

He didn't seem bothered about giving us any ideas and nobody objected.

But I guess the climate here in Belgium is quite different.
Our Intelligence Agency manages to loose track of a turkish terrorist with 16 agents and four cars on the watch, so that might have something to do with it.

BTW folks, I don't want any talk about vigilante stuff in here. Let's not attract unnecessary attention and give the scaremongerers the rope to hang us with.