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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8034
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
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Mood: interested
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Many chemicals will be forbidden in the USA???
I found a very bad news flash on the site of a well-known supplier in the USA:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/legalaction.htm
If this becomes true, then even for common chemicals like sulphur, sodium benzoate or salicylates are forbidden for the general public. Also any fine
metal powder will be forbidden for the general public and also any oxidizer like KMnO4, KNO3, KClO3, and a few more.
How serious is this ????   
This would be a really sad thing for the US-based chemistry hobbyists and how long will it take before this arrives in Europe?
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Swany
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 11-4-2005
Location: My happy place...
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Many people who practice pyrotechnics are well aware of the lawsuit against the company, Firefox Enterprises (I think). It has been in progress for
about a year. We now know we know that the CSPC belives in their self-richeous crusade, and they do not seem to be dettered easily. I really don't
know how it will turn out. Personally, I am stockpiling.
In closing, it appears to be serious, and we are really pissed off.
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unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5129
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
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Mood: No Mood
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How long before the US stops singing about "the land of the free?
Here in the UK making fireworks is illegal anyway but that lawsuit seems to be penalising people for no valid reason.
What unitednuclear need is a lawyer who makes his own pyrotechnics.
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vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
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I thought every US citizen needs a gun to protect him/herself?
Why do government goons need to protect people when they can get guns?
I know this is silly, but you get the point I'm trying to make.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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mrjeffy321
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 11-6-2005
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How long has this been going on [specifically in reguards to United nuclear and "criminal legal action"]?
I see it is at the top of their list on the home page, so it must have just happened.
This is insane!
Banning the sale/distribution of nitrates, sulfur, [per]Chlorates, powdered metals, ...
However, it doesnt restrict making the items yourself....yet.
How hard would it be to just play their game and get "a valid manufacturing license for explosives issued by the ATF"?
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Rant...
The CSPC wants everyone to have a pillow strapped to their ass in case they should fall. More to the point these bureacrats like to eat, pay
mortgages, and send their progeny to college so they will keep restricting US citizens in evermore creative ways.
End Rant
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
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Mood: Enhanced
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Old news without new news for some time.
http://www.firefox-fx.com/CPSC.htm
Even with the chemical and apparatus controls now in place in the name of public safety, in the future the present will be seen as a golden time of
wild unregulation and opportunity outside of universities and businesses, like we view the past now. Sadly, only a Libertarian swing can stop this in
the US, and this won't happen.
Take advantage of good things while you can, because they don't last.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
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Mood: .
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I really feel for you guys down in the states, once it was Canada who seemed horrible for these hobbies, now 'the land of the free' is worse than
Canada
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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
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Mood: crystalline
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Well... I dont see that much the problem.
Here in Europe, at least in the UK or germany, I never was quite so restricted. Granted, you could never buy outright NaClO3, KClO3, KNO3, metal
powders and so on. However... with I am a fish's list, all thing's are possible, and I feel quite liberated!
But then... how long will these vendors sell chemicals (which are, granted, for other purposes) until some 'authority' forbids it???
What bothers me more is ebay (ebay.de and ebay.co.uk) recently. They used to be really good for buying glassware, even chemicals (particularly for
ebay.de). These days they have COMPLETELY cut the section on 'Labor und Wissenschaftbedarf', which is laboratory and science-needs (at ebay.de). This
has progressively gotten worse, I observed it continuously although I didnt buy. These days you can't buy a simple Liebig condenser anymore, 3 years
ago you didnt know which offer to chose becasue there were so many. What has happened? You cant even buy erlenmeyers. Did they move that section
somewhere else? It just sucks to observe this, they cut down on all sellers. If you are LUCKY you can buy some CuSO4, or FeSO4. Big fuckin deal.
I AM actually considering writing to ebay to find out what is goijng on.
Good thing I bought stuff while I still could.
Still I am quite worried, the fucking fascists are everywhere. As if this will cut down stupidity-induced deaths. Why dont' they forbid driving, or
petrol or whatever? Smoking for starters? Alcohol? Chain saws? Cycling? Whatever?
It is so upsetting really. How do these fucking bureaucrats think the clever minds of the society will continue to appear, if all science that is done
on an amateur-scale is not permitted? How do they think that fascination for science can be purely derived from dry theoretical study? I studied many
years, but what realllly really did it for me is the fact that I could try things out for myself. Restricting this, how many other people will instead
develop no interest in these things at all, while for instance becoming a fuckin banker or laywer?
Great society that is.
No wonder all the great minds were in the time when things were widely available (next to the fact of course that those were the days where the
low-hanging fruits were picked).
Still - I think, society, European or otherwise, is going GROSSLY wrong.
I should write a letter to the E.P. really. Even my boss thought I should.
<end of rant>
<feel better now>
<or not >
[Edited on 2-3-2006 by chemoleo]
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
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Mood: Enhanced
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Business & Industrie>Medizin & Labor>Labor, Mess- & Prüftechnik>Laborzubehör
etc. This happened with the US ebay a year or so ago and freaked me out as well. Just a move. I don't see ebay resisting much pressure to drop these
if someone makes a case that they feel is compelling.
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chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
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Mood: crystalline
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Oh wow, thank you, Du hast meinen Tag wieder gut gemacht!!!
Thanks a lot.
Still ... at least part of my rant still holds.
Just wait... it won't take long until the fascist cut that source down, too.
I've seen it with others (dechema and such), it's only a question of time
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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DeAdFX
Hazard to Others
Posts: 339
Registered: 1-7-2005
Location: Brothel
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Mood: @%&$ing hardcore baby
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Bah no way in hell I would get a ATFE lisence for pyrotechnics. Science is a way to satisfy curiousty not a paper work fest fiasco.
I really hate how the world is going with this you have to be certified to do this task in order to pursue it. Why doesn't the government get right
to the point and tell me that I do not have the right to breathe the air without a proper liscence and air filter.
I think the people in the 1800's-early 1900's enjoyed science so much because there was no MTV. In other words there weren't a bunch of god damn
whiny ass fucktard teenagers concerned about sniffing cociane off a hookers ass. Now we have a bunch of god damn ass clowns thinking they are
gangsters. Society and the media promote being useless slabs of meat and condem intelligent people.
""""Even with the chemical and apparatus controls now in place in the name of public safety, in the future the present will be seen as a golden time
of wild unregulation and opportunity outside of universities and businesses, like we view the past now. Sadly, only a Libertarian swing can stop this
in the US, and this won't happen.""""
I am from the US and I notice that in US history classes we love to condem the past. I have a feeling 20 years from now amature
scientists/pyrotechnics will be viewed as another evil on level with hitler/terrorist/arabs with bombs straped to their asses/meth cooks/etc. The
CSPC will be viewed on level with Rosa parks/sit ins/black civil rights/day workers being legal in the US and so forth...
[Edited on 2-3-2006 by DeAdFX]
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IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
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I lost my most favorite and best of the best madsci ebay sellers, Heruur, due to his selling yag laser modules from old surplus rangefinders. No
bullshit, I just managed to snag one before they actually booted him. He tried the other one, yahoo I think, for a couple weeks and gave up as nobody
much was there. All the buyers focus on ebay. More than a third of all my best madsci stuff I bought from him, and it has been crap at best ever
since. I don't know where he found the stuff he listed but I will never forgive ebay for booting him. If I actually had anywhere to go I wouldn't even
deal with them anymore. It is all going to hell here fast. The bullshit part of it all is as far as I know there is not one documented case of anyone
using any of this in a terror act here.
Real terrorists are going to use real explosives, and improvised anything is going to take such large amounts surely they could find out without
eliminating all private science where the quantities of items purchased are a few ounces of whatever. We all know this, they all know this, so what is
the real true fucking agenda going on here? I include the united nuclear post I just read in this question.
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Chris The Great
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
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Basically, if we want to do anything now we'll either have to
A: sign a form so they can raid our house at any time to make sure we're not doing anything "dangerous" with our liebigs
B: steal everything to cause the companies supporting the government to loose profit, and the FBI to shit it's pants everytime some 16 year old
hijacks a truck with 20,000 pounds of HE.
I say we revolt and do B.
I said it before on RS a few days ago, but I'm sick of a society that condemns personal responsibility, has no respect for individual rights, and
makes it so that we have to dream of certain procedures or relate the experiences of SWIM.
I asked the question there, and I'll ask it again here. Are you going to stand around and talk and whine while the government strips away our rights
on it's way to a police state? Or are you going to get up, stand up for your beliefs and DO something?
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BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3254
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
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Mood: Rock n' Roll
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Changing the government these days is about as difficult as starting your own unless you are some trampled on racial minority with a religous excuse.
I'd jump ship but we are rapidly running out of feasible places to go in the first world countries.
That time magazine cover that was in the thread "Have you seen this Kewl" has a story in it about how America is loosing scientists coming into the
field because there are no more heros in the science industry and that there needs to be a new scientist hero. Well.... I must say... not with this
repressive atmosphere. Where is our modern chemistry utopia? I mean, the whole world revolves around chemistry now, you would expect from that
prespective that chemistry would be popular among the populace but instead chemists are viewed as inherently evil or with an ulterior motive unless
they are firmly endentured to a large company. Gehh... I don't think I made the point I was going for, see why I don't normally respond to threads
like this?
Anyway, let's try to get some people to donate. Wish there was a more centralized donation purpose though, it seems we have to fight each fight as
its own individual occurance and there is no central place to fight for us. As such this is turning into an expensive decentralized endevor.
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Chris The Great
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BromicAcid
Changing the government these days is about as difficult as starting your own unless you are some trampled on racial minority with a religous excuse.
I'd jump ship but we are rapidly running out of feasible places to go in the first world countries. |
Come on, it couldn't be THAT hard to hold Congress at gunpoint and force them to dissolve the DEA, CSPC, etc and repeal the patriot act. And give $50
cash to every American so they love us for it 
I agree with you on centralizing. That was the central gist of my revolution inticing RS post as well (though it was about less legal options),
getting together and organizing. Nothing is going to get accomplished if we all try to do stuff individually. The government will just keep stepping
on us one by one.
Also, Vulture, we can't protect ourselves anymore because the government is slowly but surely disarming the general population. Criminals are
excluded since they get their guns illegally anyway. One loss of rights leads straight to another....
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mrjeffy321
Hazard to Others
Posts: 149
Registered: 11-6-2005
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Bush is saying now that the United States need to pick up the pace in Science and Math, we are falling behind. Well what do you expect if the only
"science" a kid will see if the stuff they teach in school, which is pathetic.
I walk into my Chemistry lab, and because of my person experience, I am head and sholders above everyone else in the room, no because I am some
Chemistry genius, but it is because I know what an erlynmeyer flask is (as opposed to my lab partner). It is person experimentation that will develop
people's interest in science and with the ability to do this, more and more people will loose interest in science.
Just to see what it would take to play their game and get the stupid license required to buy the stuff, I found the application form.
http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f540013.pdf
Aside from the $200 fee you have to pay, they want to where exactly what you plan on doing, where you plan on doing it, and when your going to do it.
How do I know all this when I am filling out some form? One day, I might feel in the black powder mood, another evening, maybe rocketry.
Plus, as soon as you even apply for the license, your probably on some watch list anyway.
[Edited on 2-3-2006 by mrjeffy321]
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IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
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One thought I had was related to ebay's booting Heruur. He was selling Yag modules. Here you have a frame with rod, and flashlamp, with end and
trigger leads coming out. No electronics, no nothing else. Yet they boot him. I just bought several rods off ebay, and several flashlamps, trigger
transformers, and caps, etc.. they seem to be just fine to sell right? So why do they boot a seller doing nothing more than the others? I had to build
my strobe circuit and housing, and all that, to use Heruur's unit. I can do the same damn thing with all these parts I just bought. The point I am
trying to make is why is it wrong to sell nukes but ok to sell all the pieces with assembly instructions? Do they think the hour or two you need to
assemble a nuke makes it more ok or more safe than the other guy who shaved 30 minutes off the assembly time? OK so it wasn't nukes but you get the
point I think. One person sells 50 different kinds of glassware no problems but the one selling a 3 neck reaction flask is booted also. I don't even
use them for the intended purpose, plasma experiments and the like are more fun and the glass with openings is just perfect for introducing electrodes
and pumping down. Yet in Texas they would send me up the river?
If not now, soon I am sure. Where the hell do they come up with their guidelines, whether ebay or uncle fuckhead sam or whoever? Again for clarity my
point is really that we all know how stupid this all is! They are squashing all to do nothing to protect anyone. And all this based upon some kind of
set of guidelines that don't even make common logical sense. I do know this, in the near future I guess I will be learning how to make things the way
the old alchemists used to. Less bullshit! More fun! That is until someone using imminent domain figures out the place I spent my life building a lab
can be used to build condos and they boot me out. Land of the fucking free, or brave (you can't buy any chemicals you might hurt yourself, we are so
very afraid), my ass!
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innervision
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 6-2-2006
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Mood: eh.
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IrC, it's not getting any better so if you find somebody good on ebay, it might be a good idea to contact him and get some personal contact info so
you can still do business outside of ebay.
Chris the Great, do you really think dreaming and swimming will get anybody off the hook? That's probably worthless in court.
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IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
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Mood: Discovering
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I did so, but losing his market made him lose his living doing it, so he could not go out and find the super neat impossible to find stuff anymore, so
he quit.
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Silicium
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-2-2006
Location: Sand
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Mood: Metalloid
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So...seeing that there is nothing that we can really do to prevent this from happing (perhaps we can protest...all 50 of us ) what are we going to do for chemicals?
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innervision
Harmless
Posts: 49
Registered: 6-2-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: eh.
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Ouch. I didn't think of that. I guess buying the rest of their stock is all you could do then, but that's better than nothing.
Silicium, we'll do what we do for drugs: buy them in the underground market at an inflated price and start a whole lot more organized crime, which
will take more money from the government, so they'll hammer us a little harder because they are too dumb to see how to back out of it.
It kind of reminds me of a monkey sticking his hand in a jar grabbing some things, and not being able to take his fist back out, but he's too dumb to
let go.
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Silicium
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 28-2-2006
Location: Sand
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Mood: Metalloid
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lol...I guess I better make my christmas list early this year , but even then
were gonna run out eventually even if we do stock up. I really dont hope we have to resort to extracting chemicals from nature or common house hold
products...
The elephant never forgets, but I forget what the elephant remembered.
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Chris The Great
Hazard to Others
Posts: 463
Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
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Perhaps black market sales of chemicals will be increasing over the next few years? Think about it, no taxes
Innervision, I didn't mean it would get me off the hook. What I'm saying is that I'm sick of living in a world where we are so afraid of jackbooted
thugs breaking down our door and arresting us and detaining us without trial that we do things like that. Face it, with the government able to hold
it's own citizens without trial, does ANYTHING we do help us in court, when there isn't going to be a court? Maybe if you're lucky and they say
you're just making drugs (no solid evidence of course) you can get off with 25 years, but at least you got a trial. If they say you are one of the
325,000 terrorist suspects on the list, well, say goodbye to any right you might have thought you had (you don't have any).
This is the world we live in, and it is only getting worse.
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
Member Is Offline
Mood: On the wagon again.
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The war on drugs, especially methamphetamine is what has caused most of the problems with chemical restrictions in the USA... call it a chemical
phobia if you will.
The CPSC is doing its best to help kill the pyro suppliers, but I doubt they will be successful. Sulfer is a common chemical used as a soil additive
and antifungal dusting agent. Sodium benzoate is a food preservative. Potassium permanganate is still used in water filters. Hell if the language of
the statute is vague enough you won't be able to purchase aspirin without a BATF license.
There may be one out, and that is the CPSC only covers consumer transactions... business transactions are exempted.
Because of potential liabilities many chem suppliers out there now will only sell to businesses... specifically those that are incorporated. If the
trend continues, I imagine sooner or later that amatuer chemists in the USA will need to learn business 101 and incorporate just so they can aquire
any reagents needed to conduct their research...
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