Sciencemadness Discussion Board

KCl+O3--->KClO3

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 14:48

I have asked this question at least twice, but haven't got an answer, so I'll start a new topic.
I have been trying to oxidise chlorides for a while now, and I think it could be done with ozone.
Desolve 334 g KCl in 1 liter of water, get a homemade O3 generator and bubble O3 through it. You should get over 400 g of KClO3 if it works.
But would it work?

plante1999 - 20-12-2013 at 14:56

No.

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 15:00

So it just will not work? Why?

bismuthate - 20-12-2013 at 15:15

I believe that this would happen.
2KCl+2O3==>Cl2+2KO3
Although I'm not sure.
EDIT actualy I don't believe that happens but I do know KCl is oxidised to release Cl2.

[Edited on 20-12-2013 by bismuthate]

blogfast25 - 20-12-2013 at 15:15

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
So it just will not work? Why?


Reaction kinetics are wholly unfavourable. No more favourable than KCl +3/2 O2 === > KClO3

This really belongs in 'beginnings'.

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 15:25

Yes, that is half of the reaction that I was thinking of: KCl+O3-->Cl2+KO3. KO3+H2O--> KOH. Cl2+KOH--> KClO3. (Note: the reactions are unbalanced).

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 15:29

I just thought, ''O3 is a powerful oxidizer, it might work''. Feel free to put it in 'beginnings'.

[Edited on 20-12-2013 by Zyklonb]

bismuthate - 20-12-2013 at 16:26

Bubbling Cl through NaOH would be more efficient if that is the overall effect you were going for (Implied by the reaction you showed).

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 16:42

Ya, I know, I don't have Cl2.

Pyro - 20-12-2013 at 16:49

make it...
HCl+TCCA, HCl+Ca(OCl)

PS:Hardly anybody has Cl2. a 454g cylinder costs 325EUR at aldrich!

[Edited on 21-12-2013 by Pyro]

bismuthate - 20-12-2013 at 16:58

Or just add HCl to plain old bleach or battery MnO2.

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 17:21

Quote: Originally posted by Pyro  
make it...
HCl+TCCA, HCl+Ca(OCl)

PS:Hardly anybody has Cl2. a 454g cylinder costs 325EUR at aldrich!

[Edited on 21-12-2013 by Pyro]

Crap, that is expensive.

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 17:25

Are you sure the HCl and NaOCl works, I've heard that it doesn't work or is impure.

bismuthate - 20-12-2013 at 18:01

It does work and impurities won't matter much.

violet sin - 20-12-2013 at 18:07

I'm no expert, but I love reading about O3, so thought I'd chime int. ozone rarely adds on as a whole. in most rxn's one oxygen gets used leaving O2 to roam free or decaying to standard O2. so "IF" any reaction was to be seen with (aq) KCl it would likely proceed in single oxygen addition steps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone
...."It is also unstable at high concentrations, decaying to ordinary diatomic oxygen (with a half-life of about half an hour in atmospheric conditions): 2 O3 → 3 O2"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozonide
inorganic: ..." They are very sensitive explosives that have to be handled at low temperatures in an atmosphere consisting of an inert gas"...

organic: ..." Organic ozonides are more explosive cousins of the organic peroxides formed by addition reactions of ozone and unsaturated compounds"...

this was just from wiki so its not a comprehensive presentation of all situations and there may be special cases. I love playing with ozone and it has some very interesting reading(IMO). I have built a few O3 cells and still have one for clearing smells from a room (or small experiments). (3 cats = 3 litter boxes ). quite effective.

this may be something of interest, not sure it's long so I didn't read the whole thing: Method of producing at least one of chlorite, chlorine dioxide and chlorate by combining the reactions of ozonation and electrolytic chlorination
http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT681...

the patent describes the oxidation proceeding in incremental steps as mentioned was likely.
-Violet Sin-

elementcollector1 - 20-12-2013 at 18:11

In regards to the MnO2 method, I've had problems getting the chlorine to leave the reaction flask - namely, it's too darn heavy. It just sits there. How could this be remedied? I think if I used a smaller reaction flask, that might help.

plante1999 - 20-12-2013 at 18:19

You need to heat the MnO2 and HCl mix, else it only make a sligth amount.

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 18:21

I would just stick a glass tube through the stopper all the way down, pull the Cl off the bottom of the flask.

bismuthate - 20-12-2013 at 18:47

Well if you used a second gas as a "carrier" like H2 is used in a marsh test that might help. You could either make the carrier gas in the mixture or you could bubble it through the solution.

elementcollector1 - 20-12-2013 at 19:41

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
Well if you used a second gas as a "carrier" like H2 is used in a marsh test that might help. You could either make the carrier gas in the mixture or you could bubble it through the solution.

Given the reaction between hydrogen and chlorine, that would not end well.

@Plante199: In my experience with battery-grade MnO2, it actually makes a lot after a slow start-up time - so much so that it is hard to find a container big enough to contain the overflow. After this, the chlorine just sits there - hence the question.

[Edited on 12-21-2013 by elementcollector1]

Zyklon-A - 20-12-2013 at 19:43

Cl2 and H2 is a very reactive mixture.

bfesser - 20-12-2013 at 20:07

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activation_energy" target="_blank">Activation energy</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />

[edit] <a href="http://youtu.be/NN82GoBG98s" target="_blank">Hydrogen and Chlorine Reaction</a> <img src="../scipics/_yt.png" />

[Edited on 21.12.13 by bfesser]

violet sin - 20-12-2013 at 23:59

ya I don't think bismuthate was actually suggesting H2, but was using it as an example in a specific setting. the marsh test. but I like the vid bfesser. cool to see the different LED's used and only the UV one worked. I was kinda expecting the blue light to have a chance to pop it.

bismuthate - 21-12-2013 at 04:14

violet sin is right. I was thinking of a gas like O2 (very easy to generate) or whatever (in this situation) inert gas that is easiest for the experimenter.
bfesser, thats an amazing reaction. I wonder what would happen if you added HCl to Al and MnO2 (or anything else that produces Cl2) perhaps the H2 and Cl2 would form a pyrophoric mix.

blogfast25 - 21-12-2013 at 06:45

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
@Plante199: In my experience with battery-grade MnO2, it actually makes a lot after a slow start-up time - so much so that it is hard to find a container big enough to contain the overflow. After this, the chlorine just sits there - hence the question.



It's really just a question of quantities: a small amount of Cl2 in a large vessel will of course just displace the air and that's it.

I found years and years ago that with battery crud the graphite is a real problem because it gets everywhere and the mixture foams terribly. Pure MnO2 is cheap as chips and does make a decent Cl generator but as always you have to plan your stoichiometry well to get what you want. Wash your chlorine gas with water to eliminate HCl.

blogfast25 - 21-12-2013 at 06:48

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
Cl2 and H2 is a very reactive mixture.


It depends. Dry H2 and Cl2 really don't react that easily and will require heating for the reaction to start. A bit like H2 and O2, really. Activation energy.

Water appears to play a catalytic role in H2 + Cl2, so moist mixtures are more dangerous than very dry ones. But even moist mixtures will not spontaneously explode, as far as I know.

Zyklon-A - 21-12-2013 at 08:12

N2 would be an excellent carrier.

bismuthate - 21-12-2013 at 08:24

It would but how would you get/make/control it?

Fantasma4500 - 21-12-2013 at 08:34

but...
O3 + 3H2O > 3H2O2
wouldnt that pretty much just ignore the harder to seperate KCl??

Zyklon-A - 21-12-2013 at 16:30

''but...
O3 + 3H2O > 3H2O2"

Does that reaction happen? I've never seen that.

[Edited on 22-12-2013 by Zyklonb]

Zyklon-A - 21-12-2013 at 16:35

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
It would but how would you get/make/control it?


Bubbled through Sulfuric acid to get rid of water, Lime water to get rid of CO2, heated copper wool to get rid of O2,(less than 1% Ar will have no negative affects at all).

bismuthate - 21-12-2013 at 17:04

Cu wouldn't work, but well luckily O2 doesn't matter. How would you make the air do that though? (go through your set up). Also put the H2SO4 after the lime water.

elementcollector1 - 21-12-2013 at 17:05

Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate  
Cu wouldn't work, but well luckily O2 doesn't matter. How would you make the air do that though? (go through your set up). Also put the H2SO4 after the lime water.

Probably an air pump, or even a balloon.

Zyklon-A - 21-12-2013 at 17:28

My science book says that hot copper does react with O2.

bismuthate - 21-12-2013 at 19:00

It will but not with the speed nesescary. I would just let the O2 to stay in the mix since it won't react with Cl2 or NaOH..

Zyklon-A - 22-12-2013 at 13:48

Well, might as well use air, much cheaper than O2, or any other gasses.

Zyklon-A - 23-12-2013 at 12:59

Ok, so I went to Home Depot and bought 1 gallon of ''Safer Muriatic Acid'', (The bottle did not say the concentration of HCl at all). and some ''Pool Shock'' CaOCl( it says, ''52% CaOCl, 48% inert powder.

The HCl is called "Safer'', because it does not fume much, and since it is still quite concentrated, it must have some other ingredients, (it's very clear).
I don't know how to find the concentration of HCl, some help please.
Also, would 52% CaOCl work, or do I need to recrystallize it?

bfesser - 23-12-2013 at 13:58

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
I don't know how to find the concentration of HCl, some help please.
We don't encourage spoon-feeding on this board. Please try using the search function. This has been discussed.

macckone - 24-12-2013 at 01:55

This is one topic that could be better answered with a single link elsewhere:

http://www.utahpyro.org/resources/compositions.php

All of the information you ever wanted on chlorates and perchlorates.
Well maybe not all but certainly the process to make them from
carbon, steel, salt and electricity.