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Zyklon-A
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KCl+O3--->KClO3
I have asked this question at least twice, but haven't got an answer, so I'll start a new topic.
I have been trying to oxidise chlorides for a while now, and I think it could be done with ozone.
Desolve 334 g KCl in 1 liter of water, get a homemade O3 generator and bubble O3 through it. You should get over 400 g of KClO3 if it works.
But would it work?
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plante1999
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No.
I never asked for this.
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Zyklon-A
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So it just will not work? Why?
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bismuthate
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I believe that this would happen.
2KCl+2O3==>Cl2+2KO3
Although I'm not sure.
EDIT actualy I don't believe that happens but I do know KCl is oxidised to release Cl2.
[Edited on 20-12-2013 by bismuthate]
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blogfast25
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Reaction kinetics are wholly unfavourable. No more favourable than KCl +3/2 O2 === > KClO3
This really belongs in 'beginnings'.
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Zyklon-A
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Yes, that is half of the reaction that I was thinking of: KCl+O3-->Cl2+KO3. KO3+H2O--> KOH. Cl2+KOH--> KClO3. (Note: the reactions are
unbalanced).
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Zyklon-A
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I just thought, ''O3 is a powerful oxidizer, it might work''. Feel free to put it in 'beginnings'.
[Edited on 20-12-2013 by Zyklonb]
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bfesser
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Thread Moved
20-12-2013 at 16:06 |
bismuthate
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Bubbling Cl through NaOH would be more efficient if that is the overall effect you were going for (Implied by the reaction you showed).
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Zyklon-A
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Ya, I know, I don't have Cl2.
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Pyro
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make it...
HCl+TCCA, HCl+Ca(OCl)
PS:Hardly anybody has Cl2. a 454g cylinder costs 325EUR at aldrich!
[Edited on 21-12-2013 by Pyro]
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.  |
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bismuthate
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Or just add HCl to plain old bleach or battery MnO2.
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Zyklon-A
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Quote: Originally posted by Pyro  | make it...
HCl+TCCA, HCl+Ca(OCl)
PS:Hardly anybody has Cl2. a 454g cylinder costs 325EUR at aldrich!
[Edited on 21-12-2013 by Pyro] |
Crap, that is expensive.
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Zyklon-A
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Are you sure the HCl and NaOCl works, I've heard that it doesn't work or is impure.
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bismuthate
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It does work and impurities won't matter much.
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violet sin
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I'm no expert, but I love reading about O3, so thought I'd chime int. ozone rarely adds on as a whole. in most rxn's one oxygen gets used leaving O2
to roam free or decaying to standard O2. so "IF" any reaction was to be seen with (aq) KCl it would likely proceed in single oxygen addition steps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone
...."It is also unstable at high concentrations, decaying to ordinary diatomic oxygen (with a half-life of about half an hour in atmospheric
conditions): 2 O3 → 3 O2"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozonide
inorganic: ..." They are very sensitive explosives that have to be handled at low temperatures in an atmosphere consisting of an inert gas"...
organic: ..." Organic ozonides are more explosive cousins of the organic peroxides formed by addition reactions of ozone and unsaturated
compounds"...
this was just from wiki so its not a comprehensive presentation of all situations and there may be special cases. I love playing with ozone and it
has some very interesting reading(IMO). I have built a few O3 cells and still have one for clearing smells from a room (or small experiments). (3
cats = 3 litter boxes ). quite effective.
this may be something of interest, not sure it's long so I didn't read the whole thing: Method of producing at least one of chlorite, chlorine
dioxide and chlorate by combining the reactions of ozonation and electrolytic chlorination
http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT681...
the patent describes the oxidation proceeding in incremental steps as mentioned was likely.
-Violet Sin-
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elementcollector1
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In regards to the MnO2 method, I've had problems getting the chlorine to leave the reaction flask - namely, it's too darn heavy. It just
sits there. How could this be remedied? I think if I used a smaller reaction flask, that might help.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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plante1999
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You need to heat the MnO2 and HCl mix, else it only make a sligth amount.
I never asked for this.
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Zyklon-A
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I would just stick a glass tube through the stopper all the way down, pull the Cl off the bottom of the flask.
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bismuthate
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Well if you used a second gas as a "carrier" like H2 is used in a marsh test that might help. You could either make the carrier gas in the mixture or
you could bubble it through the solution.
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elementcollector1
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| Quote: Originally posted by bismuthate | | Well if you used a second gas as a "carrier" like H2 is used in a marsh test that might help. You could either make the carrier gas in the mixture or
you could bubble it through the solution. |
Given the reaction between hydrogen and chlorine, that would not end well.
@Plante199: In my experience with battery-grade MnO2, it actually makes a lot after a slow start-up time - so much so that it is hard to
find a container big enough to contain the overflow. After this, the chlorine just sits there - hence the question.
[Edited on 12-21-2013 by elementcollector1]
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Zyklon-A
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Cl2 and H2 is a very reactive mixture.
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bfesser
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<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activation_energy" target="_blank">Activation energy</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />
[edit] <a href="http://youtu.be/NN82GoBG98s" target="_blank">Hydrogen and Chlorine Reaction</a> <img src="../scipics/_yt.png" />
[Edited on 21.12.13 by bfesser]
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violet sin
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ya I don't think bismuthate was actually suggesting H2, but was using it as an example in a specific setting. the marsh test. but I like the vid
bfesser. cool to see the different LED's used and only the UV one worked. I was kinda expecting the blue light to have a chance to pop it.
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bismuthate
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violet sin is right. I was thinking of a gas like O2 (very easy to generate) or whatever (in this situation) inert gas that is easiest for the
experimenter.
bfesser, thats an amazing reaction. I wonder what would happen if you added HCl to Al and MnO2 (or anything else that produces Cl2) perhaps the H2 and
Cl2 would form a pyrophoric mix.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1 | @Plante199: In my experience with battery-grade MnO2, it actually makes a lot after a slow start-up time - so much so that it is hard to
find a container big enough to contain the overflow. After this, the chlorine just sits there - hence the question.
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It's really just a question of quantities: a small amount of Cl2 in a large vessel will of course just displace the air and that's it.
I found years and years ago that with battery crud the graphite is a real problem because it gets everywhere and the mixture foams terribly. Pure MnO2
is cheap as chips and does make a decent Cl generator but as always you have to plan your stoichiometry well to get what you want. Wash your chlorine
gas with water to eliminate HCl.
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