Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Australia (*Facepalm*)

Australia (Facepalm)

Finnnicus - 29-4-2013 at 03:06

UGH! I know I live in a great country 'n' all, but some times.... (see mood). I am wondering on how to obtain acids, particularly OTC, not to make! I'm fine with refining tho.
Thanks, and my condolences to my fellow aussies.

BTW: Phosphoric acid is an easy get.

EDIT: I have UTFSE, but the threads are old, and possibly outdated.

[Edited on 29-4-2013 by Finnnicus]

Lawrencium - 29-4-2013 at 03:10

Anything specific that you're after?

DrSchnufflez - 29-4-2013 at 03:27

Sulfuric acid that I have is currently molmar "mo-flo" brand drain cleaner which I found in a hardware store, however it is dyed a brown colour which, despite my best efforts, I cannot get rid of.

elementcollector1 - 29-4-2013 at 05:20

Hydrogen peroxide and heat?

Bot0nist - 29-4-2013 at 06:15

Yeah, if you have the peroxide to waste, it does work. Boil the acid heavily. This will help "clump" together some of the impurities, then cool the acid and add it dropwise to some 12% H2O2 with agressive cooling. should clear it up a bit. AFAIK, the dye doesnt hurt most reactions, though.

[Edited on 29-4-2013 by Bot0nist]

Fantasma4500 - 29-4-2013 at 07:47

weeeeeell

FeCl3 > HCl + Fe2O3 IIRC
apparently FeCl3 is bound to .. i think 6 water atoms, making it form HCl and not Cl2
i would say its worth a try, also very very concentrated gas of HCl you get.. bubbled the gas through a little bit of water to get a lower conc. of HCl..

just thought this was needed to be added as FeCl3 shouldnt be hard to get (PCB etchant) and should be possible to do with decent destillation setup or just hose connected to a flask

H2SO4 ~37% ~1.27m is available at stores where you buy stuff for cars so to say ''battery acid'' they usually call it..
i believe worldwide the max concentration you can get this as is 50%, also this ive seen sold in large quanities for pools, 50% also..

HCl aka muriatic acid aswell for pools

HNO3 OTC is usually abit harder (because we all know theres terrorists luring around every SINGLE corner)

Finnnicus - 29-4-2013 at 14:45

HCl, and H2SO4 mostly... but any other nice OTC things would be good too.

BTW: I have been questioned about the intent of purchase when buying CuSO4 drain opener LOL.

Lawrencium - 29-4-2013 at 15:29

I think the standard response for sourcing HCI and H2SO4 is to go to your local hardware store, but it's not always so easy in Australia. Both were once commonly seen on hardware shelves but not so much anymore. I can still buy both locally but when I first started stocking up my lab again after an international move, I reckon I visited more than 10 different hardware stores before I found what I needed.

Bunnings and Home Timber & Hardware both sell Hydrochloric. Home T&H also sell Molmar "mo-flo" branded Sulphuric which was mentioned by DrSchnufflez. I only mention these suppliers as they have a fairly large store range in Aus, but I guess the key is to not give up and keep checking all of your local OTC suppliers. I'm struggling myself to find a local supply of Nitric and currently have to make my own.

binaryclock - 29-4-2013 at 19:31

Here in Canada we can get 34.51% HCl in hardware stores OTC, and 92%-96% H2SO4 OTC hardware stores as drain cleaner. Yes, our drain cleaner is also dyed brown but that never worried me yet.

As far as HNO3 (nitric acid,) it's impossible to find unless you are a school or someone in the industry. I have not seen it sold OTC. I am new to chemistry as a hobby and my next major purchase will be a distillery kit so I can make 70% HNO3 from my H2SO4 and KNO3. Luckily, KNO3 is still easy to find here thank god. We even can synth NaNO3 from drain cleaner as well with a bit of work but it's really getting tough now that they put the Al pieces in the drain cleaner.

[Edited on 30-4-2013 by binaryclock]

Doc B - 29-4-2013 at 20:31

Ozzies are welcome to pm me for any equipment and LR or AR grade requests.
Payment by PayPal and forwarded to nominated postal address.

EDIT: Please include volumes/sizes so I can reply with a quote to your pm's.

[Edited on 30-4-2013 by Doc B]

Tdep - 29-4-2013 at 20:37

CuSO4 and HCl are an easy buy from Mitre 10 but H2SO4 eludes me so much here in Aus.

And goddamn the shipping prices for everything from the internet!

aliced25 - 29-4-2013 at 20:59

Campbells sell H2SO4 in 4-5L jugs, but you have to find a way to access them. The alternative is oxidation of sulfurous acid - use impure chemicals, ie. store bought HCl and hypochlorite to make Cl2, then oxidize sulfurous acid to sulfuric acid and nice clean HCl can be added to distilled water. I've made sulfurous acid using store-bought HCl and dripped it on sodium metabisulphite and dissolved the SO2 in distilled water. Make it clean and you can have faith in the purity of your reagents.

Trying to find Phosphorus Pentoxide is a joke, I'm beginning to think it is unobtanium without making it oneself which would be quite an adventure.

[Edited on 30-4-2013 by aliced25]

DrSchnufflez - 29-4-2013 at 21:22

Has anyone tried to purchase chemicals in Australia from Haines educational? I've been thinking about it for a while as some of their prices seem quite reasonable to me.

Lawrencium - 29-4-2013 at 22:56

Quote: Originally posted by DrSchnufflez

Has anyone tried to purchase chemicals in Australia from Haines educational? I've been thinking about it for a while as some of their prices seem quite reasonable to me.

Their website says that "We supply chemicals to educational institutions and approved account holders only." I emailed them asking how one becomes an approved account holder but never received a response back from them.

binaryclock - 30-4-2013 at 05:14

"approved account holders only" usually means people in the industry or people who have been bonded by the government as way of a license to acquire certain chemicals.

Doc B - 30-4-2013 at 07:08

LR and AR HNO3 70%, H2SO4 96-98%, etc are like most reagents and equipment are no problem just pm me volumes/sizes and i'll quote you but Aliced25 that's a good one! I know I have phosphoric (v) oxide and vanadium pentoxide but phosphorous pentoxide... Hmmmm if you really want it I'm going to have to check the crypt for that one.

DrSchnufflez and Lawrencium...

Haines do have excellent prices but as they mainly carter to education institutions with large orders, even the approved account holders that only wants 500ml HNO3 and a beaker might find it difficult to get service.

H2SO4

Harristotle - 30-4-2013 at 08:43

H2SO4 is relatively easy.
Clark Rubber, pool shops and others sell it as non-fuming pool acid, at around 30%.

My main complaint is that it comes in 20l pots, which was a good deal more than I could use for anodising. In the end I declined on the basis of not wanting a disposal problem, but if you have a mate with a pool I'm sure you could do some kind of deal.

Oscilllator - 30-4-2013 at 19:20

Quote: Originally posted by DrSchnufflez

Has anyone tried to purchase chemicals in Australia from Haines educational? I've been thinking about it for a while as some of their prices seem quite reasonable to me.

Not chemicals per se, but I did buy some nickel electrodes, a sep funnel and a bunch of other stuff. Postage was really slow

@OP: Not to worry for I also live in australia and just recently I bought "maximum power" drain cleaner,which as far as I can tell is pure 98% sulfuric acid. I bought it from the plumbing supplies co-op, whos website can be found here: www.pscoop.com.au/. They have quite a few stores around Australia.
Incidently, I also bought "100%" methyl-ethyl ketone here which came with a red colourant, but I simply distilled off the MEK, so that wasn't a problem.

Lawrencium - 30-4-2013 at 19:33

I followed up with Haines again yesterday after replying to this thread and got the following response back from them this morning.

" We basically only supply and deliver chemicals to schools and businesses.

We get too many requests for chemicals from people who want to use them to produce contraband.

Sorry, maybe try Science Supply or Westlab. "

Basically what Doc B has already stated but I thought I would share for anyone interested...

Finnnicus - 30-4-2013 at 23:56

Doc B, I would live to buy from you, but the price is too high for me! I you have money to spend, He is the one to give it to!

RobertRobinson75 - 8-5-2013 at 22:27

Quote: Originally posted by Lawrencium

I followed up with Haines again yesterday after replying to this thread and got the following response back from them this morning.

" We basically only supply and deliver chemicals to schools and businesses.

We get too many requests for chemicals from people who want to use them to produce contraband.

Sorry, maybe try Science Supply or Westlab. "

Basically what Doc B has already stated but I thought I would share for anyone interested...

I'm a bit late to the discussion but I thought I'd ask... does anyone have any experience or knowledge of Science Supply? Their site is interesting, but I'm wary of ordering from a website that references Breaking Bad in their lab equipment section.

Finnnicus - 8-5-2013 at 22:55

Why? That just makes them cooler!

RobertRobinson75 - 8-5-2013 at 23:16

Well, I admit I gave it a smile when I saw it.

I might give them a go soon, I'm interested in trying out their PTFE tubing distillation apparatus.

Finnnicus - 8-5-2013 at 23:24

Tell us how it's goes!

~Respect the chemistry.
~I am the one who knocks.

[Edited on 9-5-2013 by Finnnicus]

Oscilllator - 9-5-2013 at 01:30

Quote: Originally posted by RobertRobinson75

Quote: Originally posted by Lawrencium

I have experience with them, I bought 2 mercury thermometers and a basic disillation setup that did not require an EUD. And I didn't catch the breaking bad reference

Heres the link to what I bought:
http://sciencesupply.com.au/shop/organic-chemistry-kits/147-...

DrSchnufflez - 9-5-2013 at 04:41

I bought a stirring hotplate from their eBay store and was well impressed by the service.

Mesa - 16-9-2013 at 06:00

I realize this is a bit of a necro, but I figure it's acceptable given content.

I went down to Battery World the other day, the storefront was closed but the workshop was open and a few labourer/tradies were sitting around looking bored. I walked up and asked if I could grab some sulphuric acid off them, they tossed me a litre of ~30-35% for free. I've boiled about 150ml down to 70ml and noted no discoloration whatsoever, testing with litmus paper resulted in a piece of charred carbon

.

That being said, I don't see why hydrogen peroxide is seen as such a precious resource(and therefore not worth using to clean Momar H2SO4.) 50% H2O2 is readily available for chips from any hydroponics store e.g.
http://www.hydroponicxpress.com.au/shop/p-gt-oxy-plus-hydrog...

Regarding SS; I've bought the vast majority of my glassware from Science Supply, the guy that runs the shop is quite friendly and quick to respond to emails. I originally grabbed a 24/29 distillation kit advertised as a cheap chinese import. When it arrived I found that the side necks on all the flasks were 19/26. After emailing him about it he offered to send out some 19/26 ground glass stoppers for free.
Also, It's noted on his site that the breaking bad reference was unintentional. It was meant to be a reference to the German physicist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Heisenberg

Regarding HNO3; I grabbed 3kg of LR potassium nitrate off an Australian ebay seller for about $25 a few months ago. Addition of H2SO4 then distillation should give me fairly pure HNO3 at its azeotrope(68% IIRC)
Given how often this reaction is cited on SM, I assume I should be fine not providing a reference here(can only find yahoo answers or about.com types from google.)

My biggest problem is sourcing any reagents/solvents that could be considered even mildly interesting. I can get sodium hypophosphite by the bucketload from the hardware store, but I can't get clean MEK without travelling 200+Km(or having it posted).
So it seems the regulatory committee's don't mind me making as much H3PO3/Meth as I want, but heaven forbid I ever try to recycle plastics with something non-flammable!

Oscilllator - 17-9-2013 at 00:57

Mesa assuming you live in australia, it would do you good to actually read the thread. I specifically mentioned where to get MEK in australia. Or perhaps you don't live near a plumbing supplies co-op?

Also, the Nitric acid comes over as fuming nitric acid, and its entirely possible to get it at >90% especially if you use a vacuum and excess sulfuric acid.

Mesa - 17-9-2013 at 08:59

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

Mesa assuming you live in australia, it would do you good to actually read the thread. I specifically mentioned where to get MEK in australia. Or perhaps you don't live near a plumbing supplies co-op?

Also, the Nitric acid comes over as fuming nitric acid, and its entirely possible to get it at >90% especially if you use a vacuum and excess sulfuric acid.

Plumbing supplies stores that carry MEK won't sell it to people without an ABN(Loc: Newcastle.) The store you linked to has an outlet about 15 minutes from me, they were one of the first I tried after getting the local hardware store's MEK(which was full of polymerized goop).

Moreover, MEK was simply an example of something that has precisely 2/7th's of sweet fuck all to do with explosives/drug manufacture, but none-the-less require a huge amount of hassle to get in any respectable purity.

There is a difference between reading a thread, and comprehending it.

[Edited on 17-9-2013 by Mesa]

DrSchnufflez - 17-9-2013 at 15:41

Try a pool supply house or Clark rubber as I found my butanone there. It's sold as a solvent for the solvent welding of pool pipes and the likes. At least in Victoria it is...

And it is Butanone as I've manged to form butanone azine from it in the hydrazine Sulfate prep.

starman - 17-9-2013 at 22:23

RR75 asked:
I'm a bit late to the discussion but I thought I'd ask... does anyone have any experience or knowledge of Science Supply? Their site is interesting, but I'm wary of ordering from a website that references Breaking Bad in their lab equipment section.

I've used science supply a couple of times. He's a nice guy and ships his stuff out promptly. I haven't purchased any of his ground glass however so I can't vouch for its quality.
I know from correspondence with him that he is a long time lurker on this site and his heart is in the right place regarding amateur chemistry.

@Doc B Don't mean to be rude but wanted to ask how you happen to be in a position to sell AR Reagents and what your motivations and Bona Fides are?

[Edited on 18-9-2013 by starman]

hames - 21-9-2013 at 20:55

A good place to get 98% sulphuric acid and other chemicals is a place called allens in Brisbane,I got two 15l containers for about 30-$40each they have to order it in from their suppliers they were actually trying to push a 205l for about $300 but I don't own a forklift to get it off the ute, I'm sure they would also be able to supply H2O2 and solvents such as butanone anything industrial, they have a big sign out the front that says they sell to the general public,I also got all my glass from matt at sciencesupply and I assume its good quality in comparison to say wiltronics glassware.