Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Cautionary tale

Grndpndr58 - 8-5-2019 at 05:24

I haven't posted in some time satisfied to watch as new and old members found their niche and matured into some very proficient chemists,Im In awe of your progress as a whole.I am the same member formerly known as grndpndr,Surreptitiously I forgot my password so rather than post ignorance I've come to recognize my shortcomings.
Anyway the serious side of this post has to do with a seemingly innocuous experiment synthesising sodium chlorate (for reactive tgts).It was extremely cold that evening so I had some insulation around my cell containing approx 3l of electro!yte with a mod. Computer power source supplying 5v-18 amps.the electrolyte required topping off along w/pH adjustment. So I added requisite electrolyte then undiluted hydrochloric acid.There was as far as reconstruct a bloom
Of Im guessing concentrate chlorine gas.I was instantly overcome unable to breathe making itfromgarage to house on instinct alone knowing id die in the garage before my wife became concerned.Like many of you I can spend hours in my shop even in bitter cold temps.10 days of intensive care and life support intubated along with
paralytics /high doses fentanyl Drs/terminally I'll wife unaware if I would succumb
or worse suffer brain damage.Obviously I made it but it was the toughest fight to survive I've had the misfortune to experience.I have recovered well,no longer requiring 02 just sciatic nerve pain due roto rootering bloodclots,.No evident?brain damage:o I became my own worst enemy.Complacency. I had all the PPE to include respirator with proper new filters,safety goggles,chemical elbow gloves and labcoat all sitting unused.A few seconds of complacency perhaps cocky? I've done this many times BS:

Cautionary tale

Grndpndr58 - 8-5-2019 at 05:31

I haven't posted in some time satisfied to watch as new and old members found their niche and matured into some very proficient chemists,Im In awe of your progress as a whole.I am the same member formerly known as grndpndr,Surreptitiously I forgot my password so rather than post ignorance I've come to recognize my shortcomings.
Anyway the serious side of this post has to do with a seemingly innocuous experiment synthesising sodium chlorate (for reactive tgts).It was extremely cold that evening so I had some insulation around my cell containing approx 3l of electro!yte with a mod. Computer power source supplying 5v-18 amps.the electrolyte required topping off along w/pH adjustment. So I added requisite electrolyte then undiluted hydrochloric acid.There was as far as reconstruct a bloom
Of Im guessing concentrate chlorine gas.I was instantly overcome unable to breathe making itfromgarage to house on instinct alone knowing id die in the garage before my wife became concerned.Like many of you I can spend hours in my shop even in bitter cold temps.10 days of intensive care and life support intubated along with
paralytics /high doses fentanyl Drs/terminally I'll wife unaware if I would succumb
or worse suffer brain damage.Obviously I made it but it was the toughest fight to survive I've had the misfortune to experience.I have recovered well,no longer requiring 02 just sciatic nerve pain due roto rootering bloodclots,.No evident?brain damage:o I became my own worst enemy.Complacency. I had all the PPE to include respirator with proper new filters,safety goggles,chemical elbow gloves and labcoat all sitting unused.A few seconds of complacency perhaps cocky? I've done this many times BS:Hello to all, old familiar members and newer members please be as safe as youcan possibly make your experiments and remember even the most seemingly harmless experiment can and will jump up and bite your ass!

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-5-2019 at 06:23

3 liter cell ? And into cell was pour hydrochloric acid 32% ? Cell water was warm? How much grams of acid was poured? Inside closed garage was manipulated with this? Any way, is it pretty interesting message. Simple chemical operation, but with fatal aftermath. If I undertand. Hydrogen chloride caused lung edema I guess? Or all gases together? Chlorine, oxichlorine and hydrogen chloride? Horror experience. The God bless you for this info....:cool:...LL
PS: Yesterday I finished conversion in cell 700ml. NaCl = NaClO3. In garage. Without adding HCl. The cell have silicone tube output - outdoor.

cell.JPG - 927kB

fusso - 8-5-2019 at 06:26

Why do you double post?

hissingnoise - 8-5-2019 at 06:45

Wow grndpndr, it's been nearly 7 yrs ─ you're most welcome back!

Sure, shit happens, but at least that's all behind you now.

I used to add very small quantities of HCL to a working cell myself and even that always produced a sudden eye-watering mist which would kinda drive me back but with lesser effect on the lungs...

My shed was roomy and airy, so there was that difference, too.

BTW, as to your old account, you could just ask Polverone for a new PW for your old account to feel more 'back in the fold'?

Grndpndr58 - 8-5-2019 at 07:27

LL; I did no measure in ml, previous experience not a good indicator!!indicated a little less than a capfull?Guesstimate 5 ml and yes the cell electro?yte was unusually cold and I suspect the small outbuilding door was shut!!! I was using bundle graphite gouging rods treated wlinseed oil and a
2 wide x 1/4 thich as cathode k dichromate cut back from previous runs to 1 gr liter.Found it very difficult to ridthe chlorate of the yellowish tinge imparted by recommended amount.I don't believe that was a contributor to the near fatal error.Again complacency-familiarity! Most basic safety issues ignoredth ,1 like the proverbial snake jumped up and bit me on the ass!p

Grndpndr58 - 8-5-2019 at 09:04

I very much appreciate the sentiment Hissingnoise, thànkyou!

I've been kinda overwhelmed by my wifes illness but I've seen several papers online by Kunzel and co.One illustrates watergells sensitized by ETN . 25% ETN watergell

Sensitizer with a 7 gram Semtex booster exceeded 6000ms w/o confinement.
A second paper compared physical. Property's of peer? Explosives,PETN/RDX/HG Fulminate to demonstrate sensitivity or rather lack there off of the cast ETN
I can name the papers etc but I'm unable topostthem ifinterested

fusso - 8-5-2019 at 10:16

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
BTW, as to your old account, you could just ask Polverone for a new PW for your old account to feel more 'back in the fold'?
Isnt Polv still MIA (missing in action)?

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-5-2019 at 11:11

Your last sentences was translated to purely Englis language:
LL; I did no measured in ml. Previous experience not a good indicator! Indicated a little less than the full the cap? I gues estimate 5 ml. Yes the cell electro? It was unusually cold and I have suspect, that the small outbuilding door was shut! I was using bundle graphite gouging rods treated wlinseed oil. And 2 wide x 1/4 inch as cathode. Dichromate cut back from previous runs to 1g on one liter. Found it very difficult to ridthe chlorate of the yellowish tinge imparted by recommended amount. I don't believe that was a contributor to the near fatal error. Again complacency-familiarity! Most basic safety was issues ignored. Like the proverbialed snake jumped up and bit me on the ass!

j_sum1 - 8-5-2019 at 16:27

That is a bit of a scare there. Easy to do though. Glad that you are on the up.
I took the liberty of merging the two threads. bay as well have the whole discussion in one place. Apologies if this temporarily upsets the linearity.

markx - 8-5-2019 at 23:04

I've had a very similar event happening under my watch. Fortunately the cell was outside and posed thus less of a risk on my wellbeing. But it teached me that undiluted hydrochloric acid ( or perhaps the sudden swing in pH) does or at least may induce a violent runaway reaction in a chlorate cell that leads to huge amounts of chlorine gas being released and the chlorate content being destroyed totally within a few seconds.
I do not remember the circumstances clearly as it happened many years ago, but I guess out of laziness I tried to compensate the pH balance in a cell that already had a healthy KClO3 layer at the bottom and used undiluted HCl solution for the purpose (30-35% I guess). It was a technical grade acid containing iron and other impurities that impart a greenish coloration to the liquid. I do not know if that makes a difference, but the contaminants might have a catalytic effect. The addition was of similar magnitude, about 5ml. The 5L cell that was made from a PET water container was outside, sitting partly in a little creek for cooling purposes and it was late autumn, so rather chilly weather. Immediately upon the addition of the acid the cell burst into a violent runaway reaction that flowed part of the electrolyte over the top and a huge bloom of chlorine gas was released. After the vessel calmed down and I dared to take a closer look it was evident that there was no chlorate left in the cell. It had decomposed completely within a timeframe of about ten seconds. I was lucky and suffered no harm except a scare and the loss of the yield, but learned a valuable lesson.

In my later career I spent almost a decade as a techologist/chemical engineer in a chlorination pilot plant, witnessing many leaks, reactor brakedowns and other events that released the deadly gas into production facilities and labs. Although I also took a breath of it here and there, it never seemed to cause any serious damage to me, but I guess I was lucky and the gas was sufficiently diluted by the powerful ventilation systems. Nevertheless it was a daily dangerous struggle to keep the corrosive poison from escaping to places it was not meant to go. Looking back it was probably the closest and longest experience resembling chemical warfare of the WWI era that one in my part of the world can come into contact with. These were interesting times....

Grndpndr58 - 9-5-2019 at 10:24

Marxk.your experience hwith your tcell could e taken from my reconstruction of what I

expected happended ,toss in the fact I have modern ately severe COPOD was using no supplemental 02 @ time and being very cold also exacerbated problems w/
COPD! No PPE = perifect storm