Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Solid hydrogen peroxide????

Solid hydrogen peroxide????

Bikemaster - 15-1-2010 at 10:04

I was reading the label of some cleaning products to find sodium hydroxide, but before to find it, I stop on a product which the content was hydrogen peroxyde and sodium carbonate. I was feeling very stupid because I am suppose to have hydrogen peroxide in my hands, but the content was solid?
This was a new ''bio-cleaning'' product, and it was label that it use concentrate amount of oxygent to clean biologically (that get my attention

)

Thanks for the help

[Edited on 16-1-2010 by Bikemaster]

JohnWW - 15-1-2010 at 10:39

If the "peroxide" is solid, and used as a laundry product, it would probably be sodium peroxide (if the strongly alkaline reaction after hydrolysis to NaOH and NaOOH on contact with water is acceptable for the particular cleaning purpose), or else sodium percarbonate (obtained by electrolysis of the carbonate).

[Edited on 15-1-10 by JohnWW]

Picric-A - 15-1-2010 at 11:19

It will be sodium percarbonate, certainly not sodium peroxide, it is a very strong oxide which reacts rather violently with water and absorbs CO2 from the air releasing oxygen.

[Edited on 15-1-2010 by Picric-A]

DJF90 - 15-1-2010 at 11:24

John you aren't reading very well lately...

Quote: Originally posted by Bikemaster

I was reading label on all washing product to find sodium hydroxide, and I stop on a product where the content were (hydrogen peroxyde, sodium carbonate). Now i feel very stupid because i am suppose to hold hydrogen peroxide and the content was powder?
This is a new bio-washing product and it say that it use concentrate amount of oxygent to clean everyting (that get my attention

)

Seems like it is quite clearly some form of Sodium percarbonate.

[Edited on 15-1-2010 by DJF90]

JohnWW - 15-1-2010 at 11:45

The very bad grammar and spelling in Bikemaster's original post made it VERY difficult to read correctly and unambiguously!

Bikemaster - 15-1-2010 at 21:51

Percarbonate seem to be the most plausible ingredient. They also say that we can get anhydrous hydrogen peroxide from it

. I think i will try to isolate it in futur experimentation (maybe not over 50% for safety).

Sorry everyone for the bad grammar of my post, I write it very quickly because I was late at my job... I check the post to try to correct the most of my errors.

Picric-A - 16-1-2010 at 00:13

You will not be able to recover H2O2 from it, as soon as you dissolve it in water it forms H2O2+ Na2CO3 but the alkalaine solution makes the H2O2 decompose instantly

Bikemaster - 16-1-2010 at 08:43

I never say that I will disolve it in water, I just need to find the good solvent.

Quote from wikipedia:
Sodium percarbonate can be used in organic synthesis as a convenient source of anhydrous H2O2, particularly in solvents that cannot dissolve the carbonate but can leach the H2O2 out of it.

Any idea of a good solvent for this propose?
thanks

Sedit - 16-1-2010 at 16:51

If added to AcOH I believe it forms a higher concentration of Acetic peracid. Someone else care to back me up on this?

Picric-A - 17-1-2010 at 01:57

Sedit- i dont see how this would work, the acidic AcOH will react with the carbonate, even if it is glaciel, becuase the percarbonate contains both hydrogen peroxide and water of crystalisation.

Sedit - 17-1-2010 at 02:14

So does sodium perborate yet that is well known to create higher concentrations of peracid insitu. I will hint a reff if needed tommorow but its way past my bed time.

Taoiseach - 19-1-2010 at 23:39

>Any idea of a good solvent for this propose?

Diethylether should work for the purpose, but thats dangerous of course.

Taoiseach - 20-1-2010 at 09:47

Butyl acetat should work fine:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3761580.html

Ethyl acetat might also work.

Xylene and/or 1-octanol should work:

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/ja/wo.jsp?WO=2008002255&IA=SE2...

If a solvent is used that is non-miscible with water, the extraction of highly concentrated H2O2 could be as simple as mixing/agitating the percarbonate with the solvent, filtering it and then dumping it into the calculated amount of water

Bikemaster - 20-1-2010 at 15:50

I prefer more those solvents in comparaison with the diethyl ether. I don't want to create dangerous peroxide during the process...
In addition with those solvent, do you think that I can use toluene?? This is not really far from the xylene, and I have some.

Taoiseach - 20-1-2010 at 23:08

This patent hints at toluene also being a possible solvent:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3742061.html

Definetly worth a try! You might want to get this paper:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t7035m300j52x3q2/

Quote: "a saturated solution of hydrogen peroxide in toluene was prepared by shaking mixtures of 5 ml of 30% H2O2 and 20 ml of toluene vigorously for 5 min"

So its solubility is not mindboggling but since the toluene can be recycled, it doesn't even matter.

ThePhDChemist - 15-10-2011 at 08:17

Quote: Originally posted by Picric-A

You will not be able to recover H2O2 from it, as soon as you dissolve it in water it forms H2O2+ Na2CO3 but the alkalaine solution makes the H2O2 decompose instantly

NO! The alkaline solution doesn't decompose it, that is how it is made.
Sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide don't react....
I think we could get anhydrous hydrogen peroxide by heating dry sodium percarbonate so it will lose crystallization molecule 1/2 H2O2....

[Edited on 15-10-2011 by ThePhDChemist]

[Edited on 15-10-2011 by ThePhDChemist]

Dr.Bob - 15-10-2011 at 09:54

Please be careful when making solutions of peroxides in organics. I have seen several explosions due to peracetic acid (peroxide plus acetic acid), and heard of a large one due to toluene and oxidants. They are inherently unstable, and should only be sued behind a blast shield and using special techniques. There are some oxidants that are relatively safe like perborate and percarbonate, but if they are mixed with flammable organics, that can defeat their safety. One of my friends worked with a guy who was trying to make a nitro compound in large scale (at a commercial plant) and the guy tried to open the reaction before it had cooled properly and the entire pot blew up and killed him. Likely air exposed to the hot compound caused it to start reacting. Fire and explosives can be great tools but when unexpected, they are very painful.

Bob

ScienceHideout - 15-10-2011 at 10:07

Hydroxides are hydroscopic... is it possible that the NaOH was hydrated using hydrogen peroxide?

Bot0nist - 15-10-2011 at 10:30

Quote: Originally posted by Bikemaster

Percarbonate seem to be the most plausible ingredient. They also say that we can get anhydrous hydrogen peroxide from it

I don't want to seem like I'm talking down to you, but I really doubt you want or need H2O2 in any concentration nearing 100% Hydrogen peroxide is vicious. Higher concentrations have been know to decompose explosively from the tiniest impurity or speck of organic crud on your glassware. Strong hydrogen peroxide can be had simply by boiling off the water from a solution of H2O2 at reduced pressure, but anything over 70% is asking for trouble IMHO.

Again, not to sound like a fear-monger or to be discouraging. Just be safe.

EDIT: Sorry, I just noticed you said 50% for safety. That is wise thinking. Please ignore the rest of my post. ~smacking myself~

[Edited on 15-10-2011 by Bot0nist]

ThePhDChemist - 15-10-2011 at 13:39

Quote: Originally posted by ScienceHideout

Hydroxides are hydroscopic... is it possible that the NaOH was hydrated using hydrogen peroxide?

Actually sodium carbonate was hydrated...

Panache - 15-10-2011 at 23:34

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob

Please be careful when making solutions of peroxides in organics. I have seen several explosions due to peracetic acid (peroxide plus acetic acid), and heard of a large one due to toluene and oxidants. They are inherently unstable, and should only be sued behind a blast shield and using special techniques.

Bob/end

Quote:

I have never heard of anyone suing a per acid but those lawyers will try anything. More importantly though is your warning regarding per acetic acid. Yes it is inherently unstable, that's why it's effective for a whole range of Chemical and disinfecting applications. 39% solutions are sold as dairy wash down chemicals because of their zero residual. I don't think I have heard of any dairy's lately going up in a big boom. Perhaps you could elaborate on the conditions of your warning otherwise your comment although helpful as far as you are concerned, comes across as alarmist.

Sry regarding the shitty formatting learning iPad formatting presently and am impatient regarding this, life without cursor keys sure is hard.