Bikemaster
Hazard to Others
Posts: 120
Registered: 8-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Solid hydrogen peroxide????
I was reading the label of some cleaning products to find sodium hydroxide, but before to find it, I stop on a product which the content was
hydrogen peroxyde and sodium carbonate. I was feeling very stupid because I am suppose to have hydrogen peroxide in my hands, but the content was
solid?
This was a new ''bio-cleaning'' product, and it was label that it use concentrate amount of oxygent to clean biologically (that get my attention )
Thanks for the help
[Edited on 16-1-2010 by Bikemaster]
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If the "peroxide" is solid, and used as a laundry product, it would probably be sodium peroxide (if the strongly alkaline reaction after hydrolysis
to NaOH and NaOOH on contact with water is acceptable for the particular cleaning purpose), or else sodium percarbonate (obtained by electrolysis of
the carbonate).
[Edited on 15-1-10 by JohnWW]
|
|
|
Picric-A
National Hazard
Posts: 796
Registered: 1-5-2008
Location: England
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuming
|
|
It will be sodium percarbonate, certainly not sodium peroxide, it is a very strong oxide which reacts rather violently with water and absorbs CO2
from the air releasing oxygen.
[Edited on 15-1-2010 by Picric-A]
|
|
|
DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
John you aren't reading very well lately...
Quote: Originally posted by Bikemaster  | I was reading label on all washing product to find sodium hydroxide, and I stop on a product where the content were (hydrogen peroxyde,
sodium carbonate). Now i feel very stupid because i am suppose to hold hydrogen peroxide and the content was powder?
This is a new bio-washing product and it say that it use concentrate amount of oxygent to clean everyting (that get my attention) |
Seems like it is quite clearly some form of Sodium percarbonate.
[Edited on 15-1-2010 by DJF90]
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The very bad grammar and spelling in Bikemaster's original post made it VERY difficult to read correctly and unambiguously!
|
|
|
Bikemaster
Hazard to Others
Posts: 120
Registered: 8-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Percarbonate seem to be the most plausible ingredient. They also say that we can get anhydrous hydrogen peroxide from it . I think i will try to isolate it in futur experimentation (maybe not over 50% for
safety).
Sorry everyone for the bad grammar of my post, I write it very quickly because I was late at my job... I check the post to try to correct the most of
my errors.
|
|
|
Picric-A
National Hazard
Posts: 796
Registered: 1-5-2008
Location: England
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuming
|
|
You will not be able to recover H2O2 from it, as soon as you dissolve it in water it forms H2O2+ Na2CO3 but the alkalaine solution makes the H2O2
decompose instantly
|
|
|
Bikemaster
Hazard to Others
Posts: 120
Registered: 8-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I never say that I will disolve it in water, I just need to find the good solvent.
Quote from wikipedia:
Sodium percarbonate can be used in organic synthesis as a convenient source of anhydrous H2O2, particularly in solvents that cannot dissolve the
carbonate but can leach the H2O2 out of it.
Any idea of a good solvent for this propose?
thanks
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
If added to AcOH I believe it forms a higher concentration of Acetic peracid. Someone else care to back me up on this?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
Picric-A
National Hazard
Posts: 796
Registered: 1-5-2008
Location: England
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuming
|
|
Sedit- i dont see how this would work, the acidic AcOH will react with the carbonate, even if it is glaciel, becuase the percarbonate contains both
hydrogen peroxide and water of crystalisation.
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
So does sodium perborate yet that is well known to create higher concentrations of peracid insitu. I will hint a reff if needed tommorow but its way
past my bed time.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
Taoiseach
Hazard to Others
Posts: 241
Registered: 16-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
>Any idea of a good solvent for this propose?
Diethylether should work for the purpose, but thats dangerous of course.
|
|
|
Taoiseach
Hazard to Others
Posts: 241
Registered: 16-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Butyl acetat should work fine:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3761580.html
Ethyl acetat might also work.
Xylene and/or 1-octanol should work:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/ja/wo.jsp?WO=2008002255&IA=SE2...
If a solvent is used that is non-miscible with water, the extraction of highly concentrated H2O2 could be as simple as mixing/agitating the
percarbonate with the solvent, filtering it and then dumping it into the calculated amount of water 
|
|
|
Bikemaster
Hazard to Others
Posts: 120
Registered: 8-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I prefer more those solvents in comparaison with the diethyl ether. I don't want to create dangerous peroxide during the process...
In addition with those solvent, do you think that I can use toluene?? This is not really far from the xylene, and I have some.
|
|
|
Taoiseach
Hazard to Others
Posts: 241
Registered: 16-3-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
This patent hints at toluene also being a possible solvent:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3742061.html
Definetly worth a try! You might want to get this paper:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t7035m300j52x3q2/
Quote: "a saturated solution of hydrogen peroxide in toluene was prepared by shaking mixtures of 5 ml of 30% H2O2 and 20 ml of toluene vigorously for
5 min"
So its solubility is not mindboggling but since the toluene can be recycled, it doesn't even matter.
|
|
|
ThePhDChemist
banned
Posts: 23
Registered: 9-10-2011
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Picric-A | | You will not be able to recover H2O2 from it, as soon as you dissolve it in water it forms H2O2+ Na2CO3 but the alkalaine solution makes the H2O2
decompose instantly |
NO! The alkaline solution doesn't decompose it, that is how it is made.
Sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide don't react....
I think we could get anhydrous hydrogen peroxide by heating dry sodium percarbonate so it will lose crystallization molecule 1/2 H2O2....
[Edited on 15-10-2011 by ThePhDChemist]
[Edited on 15-10-2011 by ThePhDChemist]
|
|
|
Dr.Bob
International Hazard
Posts: 2734
Registered: 26-1-2011
Location: USA - NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Please be careful when making solutions of peroxides in organics. I have seen several explosions due to peracetic acid (peroxide plus acetic acid),
and heard of a large one due to toluene and oxidants. They are inherently unstable, and should only be sued behind a blast shield and using special
techniques. There are some oxidants that are relatively safe like perborate and percarbonate, but if they are mixed with flammable organics, that
can defeat their safety. One of my friends worked with a guy who was trying to make a nitro compound in large scale (at a commercial plant) and the
guy tried to open the reaction before it had cooled properly and the entire pot blew up and killed him. Likely air exposed to the hot compound
caused it to start reacting. Fire and explosives can be great tools but when unexpected, they are very painful.
Bob
|
|
|
ScienceHideout
Hazard to Others
Posts: 391
Registered: 12-3-2011
Location: In the Source
Member Is Offline
Mood: High Spin
|
|
Hydroxides are hydroscopic... is it possible that the NaOH was hydrated using hydrogen peroxide?
hey, if you are reading this, I can't U2U, but you are always welcome to send me an email!
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bikemaster | Percarbonate seem to be the most plausible ingredient. They also say that we can get anhydrous hydrogen peroxide from it. I think i will try to isolate it in futur experimentation (maybe not over 50% for
safety).
Sorry everyone for the bad grammar of my post, I write it very quickly because I was late at my job... I check the post to try to correct the most of
my errors. |
I don't want to seem like I'm talking down to you, but I really doubt you want or need H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> in any
concentration nearing 100% Hydrogen peroxide is vicious. Higher concentrations have been know to decompose explosively from the tiniest impurity or
speck of organic crud on your glassware. Strong hydrogen peroxide can be had simply by boiling off the water from a solution of
H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> at reduced pressure, but anything over 70% is asking for trouble IMHO.
Again, not to sound like a fear-monger or to be discouraging. Just be safe.
EDIT: Sorry, I just noticed you said 50% for safety. That is wise thinking. Please ignore the rest of my post. ~smacking myself~
[Edited on 15-10-2011 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
ThePhDChemist
banned
Posts: 23
Registered: 9-10-2011
Location: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Actually sodium carbonate was hydrated...
|
|
|
Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob | Please be careful when making solutions of peroxides in organics. I have seen several explosions due to peracetic acid (peroxide plus acetic acid),
and heard of a large one due to toluene and oxidants. They are inherently unstable, and should only be sued behind a blast shield and using special
techniques.
Bob/end | Quote: |
I have never heard of anyone suing a per acid but those lawyers will try anything. More importantly though is your warning regarding per acetic acid.
Yes it is inherently unstable, that's why it's effective for a whole range of Chemical and disinfecting applications. 39% solutions are sold as dairy
wash down chemicals because of their zero residual. I don't think I have heard of any dairy's lately going up in a big boom. Perhaps you could
elaborate on the conditions of your warning otherwise your comment although helpful as far as you are concerned, comes across as alarmist.
Sry regarding the shitty formatting learning iPad formatting presently and am impatient regarding this, life without cursor keys sure is hard.
|
|
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
