| Pages:
1
2 |
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
Manganese Heptoxide type reaction.
My teacher did this cheesy little experiment with ethanol, sulfuric acid, and potassium permanganate. She added the ethanol to the sulfuric acid which
floated on top of the acid if I remember correctly. Then she added small amounts of potassium permanganate. Once it sank threw the ethanol, and
contacted the sulfuric acid it reacted with the acid forming manganese heptoxide, which in turn reacted with the ethanol in the form of combustion. It
made like sparkly lights for like an hour . Anyway I have a few questions that I
never seemed to have asked her because she was a dumb "B".
1.) When you first add the ethanol to the H2SO4 does it form some diethyl ether?
2.) Would any organic solvent work for this trick so long as it doesn't react too severely with H2SO4?
3) What is the formula for manganese heptoxide, and how would you right a balanced net equation for the reaction between KMnO4 and H2SO4?
[Edited on 13-12-2004 by tom haggen]
N/A
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
3) 2KMnO4 + H2SO4 --> Mn2O7 + K2SO4 + H2O
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3246
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
1.) Concentrated sulfuric acid mixed with ethanol will likely form some diethyl ether, but not enough to be noticeable.
2.) Ethanol doesn't sound safe for this reaction to me so I have no clue what criteria would be necessary to determine if it was safe considering
it doesn't sound safe to begin with. For example, manganese heptoxide can detonate very spontaneously with many organics, I would not risk
trying to change something in a reaction that might risk detonation with the swapping of a reagent.
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
I think this is a wellknown chemistry demo experiment, which has the purpose of showing sparks in liquid. If it was that unsafe I guess they
wouldn't be doing it as a demo experiment ... teachers these days being overly concerned with H&S, but completely forgetting that the pupils
get bored with chemistry quickly 
I can find the official protocol over christmas if desired.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
garage chemist
chemical wizard
Posts: 1803
Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A very important thing in this demonstration is that the H2SO4 is NOT mixed with the ethanol. The Ethanol must float on top of the
H2SO4, the less they mix, the better the experiment works.
|
|
|
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
Even if the ethanol mixes with the sulfuric acid, wont they separate if you let them sit for a while. Bromic, the reason this isn't that
dangerous is because the manganese heptoxide forms in small amounts and reacts with the ethanol the instant if forms. It gives an effect of all these
mini type explosions underwater.
[Edited on 13-12-2004 by tom haggen]
N/A
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
I’d imagine that you’d be left with a layer of ether and one of acid with some water in it. You might get a little ethanol back, but this is
doubtful. I don’t see why the reaction wouldn’t work with ether, though.
|
|
|
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
Just how dangerous is Mn2O7? If I wanted to make like 5 grams of this stuff just for experimentation, would I be putting myself in danger. Can Mn2O7
be stored in any other containers besides those made of glass? I.E. would you be able to put this chemical in HDPE or would it oxidize the polymer?
N/A
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
All I’ve ever heard of anyone making is very small amounts. You should be able to store it in anything noncombustible. Metals would probably
corrode and plastics (except maybe PTFE) would be destroyed. By the way, manganese heptoxide tends to decompose by itself at room temperature. Just
thought you should know.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You'd need to store it below -10C. Otherwise it will slowly decompose yielding ozone and oxygen. This can be troublesome in closed vessels as
high ozone concentrations are prone to detonation.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
-10C is pretty cold. Colder than I have capabilties of maintaining. I guess I will just have to make it as I need it. I still am in the dark on
whether or not it will react with HDPE though. I was just thinking of filling small test tubes with Mn2O7 and placing them in a hydrocarbon, and
tossing them for little fire ball type explosions. The only problem is most of the test tubes I have only have lids made out of HDPE. I guess it wont
matter if I use it when I make it
[Edited on 17-12-2004 by tom haggen]
N/A
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3246
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
I believe Axt has a video on his site of manganese heptoxide reacting with xylene, I'd hardly call it a "small fireball type
explosion". Personally I won't even make the stuff, I've heard sunlight can cause it to detonate as can shock. Plus, as Vulture said,
it decomposes at ambient temperature forming ozone, not good...
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
Tom: if you have a blowtorch, you can try ampouling it, although it does require a certain degree of skill.
|
|
|
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
I'm thinking i'm going to make about 5 grams and use a pipet to drip small amounts on to a puddle of organic solvent. To get a feel for the
chemical. I'm definitely going to use it as I make it though just because I'm paranoid about storing stuff that is dangerous.
I've got a blow torch lying around but I have no idea what ampouling is.
I've also seen axt's video, but I was thinking much smaller amounts, like I said I have to get a hands on feel for how this stuff reacts.
[Edited on 17-12-2004 by tom haggen]
N/A
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
Ampouling is sealing something in an ampoule. First, you take a glass tube and seal one end shut be pulling on the end. You can then heat this to get
a rounded end (like a test tube). Next, you draw the other end out to a thin tube through which something can be added. Add the material and quickly
seal the tube. It’s simple once you get some experience.
|
|
|
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
So thats how they seal all those gases like fluorine, NO2, etc. in those glass bulbs in my text book
N/A
|
|
|
Axt
National Hazard
Posts: 795
Registered: 28-1-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Before you go playing with your blowtorch, you do realise that Mn2O7 will detonate when heated, dont you.
I have a test tube full of the stuff, from a failed naphthalene diozonide attempt. Sits up the back in a large 1/4" steel vessel, too scared to
go near it 
[Edited on 17-12-2004 by Axt]
|
|
|
tom haggen
Hazard to Others
Posts: 488
Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
Member Is Offline
Mood: a better mood
|
|
I still have my hands now, and if I were going to lose them they would be gone by now.
N/A
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
That's the point of having a narrow neck the pipette can fit through: it doesn't get any liquid on it and can be sealed quickly. If
you're worried about this, you might want to leave a lot of extra space in the ampoule.
|
|
|
Saerynide
National Hazard
Posts: 954
Registered: 17-11-2003
Location: The Void
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ionic
|
|
What if later, when you wanna open the ampoule to get the stuff out, and when you crack it, the shock causes it to detonate? You'll be impaled
with glass shards
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
|
|
|
cyclonite4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 480
Registered: 16-11-2004
Location: is unknown
Member Is Offline
Mood: Amphoteric
|
|
Thats only if you can blowtorch the tube shut without the heat setting it off. 
Mn2O7 doenst evaporate easily does it?
Whats wrong with storing it in a glass-stoppered glass bottle, and if it doesnt react with PTFE, use teflon thread sealing tape (from a hardware
store) to make an airtight seal around the stopper?
Then again, why store it at all?
|
|
|
Saerynide
National Hazard
Posts: 954
Registered: 17-11-2003
Location: The Void
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ionic
|
|
It does.
"The oil is green by reflected light and reddish-purple by transmitted light. It's fairly volatile, also, and hydrates to a purple fog if
you're brave enough (or stupid enough) to breathe over a container of the stuff. "
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
|
|
|
cyclonite4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 480
Registered: 16-11-2004
Location: is unknown
Member Is Offline
Mood: Amphoteric
|
|
Damn, why are all the cool compounds volatile , jk!
Well, someone mentioned before that it probably doesnt react with PTFE, so a glass bottle + glass stopper with PTFE tape to form an airtight plug, is
a good option for storage (although storage isn't a good option).
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
A couple of months ago I made a small ammount of manganese heptoxide in a 50mL beaker. I got the pure green Mn2O7 liquid(very little of it) floating
on top of the sulfuric acid and a very dark green solution of Mn2O7 in sulfuric acid.
The day it was prepared: When the pure liquid was dripped onto a kleenex instant flash and the kleenex caught fire. The solution of Mn2O7 in sulfuric
took abot 10s to catch the kleenex on fire.
The next day: Pure liquid took 5-10s to catch the kleenex on fire. Less "fwump" upon ignition than the previous day. The solution of Mn2O7
took almost a min to catch the kleenex VERY weak "fwump"
2 weeks later: The pure liquid has dissapeared. The contents of the beaker were brown and gooey. Nothing in the beaker was able to catch kleenex on
fire.
[Edited on 17-12-2004 by rogue chemist]
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
The tape used for plumbing is not always impervious to vapors. IME, the stuff is either impure or permeable to gases and vapors. If you want to make
some chemically resistant vials, get some decent sheet. As always,I recommend trying ebay.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
