fusso
International Hazard
Posts: 1922
Registered: 23-6-2017
Location: 4 ∥ universes ahead of you
Member Is Offline
|
|
Does (OCNO)- exist?
Fulminates (CNO-) exist.
Also cyanates (OCN-).
So their hybrid (OCNO-) should also exist right?
Why can't I find anything useful by searching OCNO-, CNO2-, percyanate or perfulminate?
|
|
|
Σldritch
Hazard to Others
Posts: 310
Registered: 22-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Never heard of it, but the isomers you wrote are not peracids which could explain why you could not find anything. However it sure looks like it wants
to split into two radicals or just Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen, maybe Carbon Monoxide and hyponitrite.
This was the closest i could find:
Isoperthiocyanic Acid, C2S3(NH)2, as stated above, is formed by the action of acid of moderate strength - e.g. 40 per cent, hydrochloric acid - on
ammonium thiocyanate. It can be crystallised from water in golden-yellow needles, and is reconverted by potassium cyanide into thiocyanate:
C2S3N2H2 + KCN = CNSK + 2CNSH.
That it is probably an iso-acid containing imide groups is shown by its reduction by nascent hydrogen to thiourea and carbon disulphide:
C2S3(NH)2 + 2H = CS(NH2)2 + CS2.
If your not looking for salts im am pretty sure NCSNO and maybe ONSNO exists more or less. If i had more silver and nitric acid i would love to try
them.
[Edited on 11-11-2018 by Σldritch]
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
In fulminate, the N-O bond is stabilized by a negative charge on carbon. However, if the C is bonded to O, there is a positive charge on carbon, which
destabilizes the triple-bonded resonance isomer. So the ion OCNO- is expected to be very unstable. It looks like it might be produced transiently by
the hydrolysis of phosgene oxime. C=N double bonds are low energy, so they are only favored when some kind of resonance isomer exists (e.g. oximes,
heterocycles, cyanamides).
More likely would be an ion -OOCN, "peroxycyanate", which would be analogous to hypothiocyanite, but this will eliminate O2 rapidly.
[Edited on 12-11-2018 by clearly_not_atara]
|
|
|
Assured Fish
Hazard to Others
Posts: 319
Registered: 31-8-2015
Location: Noo Z Land
Member Is Offline
Mood: Misanthropic
|
|
Wait a second.
C2S3(NH)2 + 2H = CS(NH2)2 + CS2
Is anyone thinking what im thinking.
Sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from madness.
|
|
|
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
Posts: 3026
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Theoretically as cyanide is at least referred to as a pseudo halogen, so following the example of chlorine (for related chlorine radical chemistry
leading to chlorate, see my links at http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=74511#... ), try working with the .CNO radical:
.CNO + .CNO =?= .CN + .OCNO
as .OCNO apparently exists, but at 10 degrees K, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16474873 and likely not a stable radical like chlorine dioxide.
Other also possible occurring products:
.CNO + .CNO =?= (CN)2 + O2
Use the carbonate radical anion to attempt to derive .CNO via CNO-:
.CO3- + OCN- =?= CO3(2-) + .CNO
With respect to the cyanate anion (OCN)- and comments on cyanate (OCN) and fulminate (ONC) radicals, see https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp021525b .
[Edited on 26-11-2018 by AJKOER]
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
A-ha! CS2 from thiourea!
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It may be better than you think
"Isoperthiocyanic acid (I) decomposes at 184°C in two steps. The first endothermic step corresponds to a breaking of the ring with evolution of one
mole of CS2 per mole"
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256361229_Thermal_b...
However, IIRC, thiourea ia reportedly carcinogenic. It's hard to see why these interesting derivative might not share that characteristic.
[Edited on 26-11-18 by unionised]
|
|
|
Assured Fish
Hazard to Others
Posts: 319
Registered: 31-8-2015
Location: Noo Z Land
Member Is Offline
Mood: Misanthropic
|
|
If you read the details of that paper referenced by unionized, carbon disulfide is only one of the products. The product left behind appears to be
some kinda free radical anion of thiourea.
At temps above 200°C this decomposes into probably multiple products, the researchers were never able to isolate or identify anything of these
byproducts and there is a likely risk that they may be quite nasty.
Ive been thinking about this and we could attempt to react this byproduct with something, perhaps a strong base or acid (the researchers only
mentioned trying to dissolve it with solvents), if we can hydrolyse or oxidize this byproduct to something more soluble we would stand a better chance
of identifying it and evaluating a method for destroying it safely.
I think the hydrogenation method is really something we could fall back on should the thermal method be to dangerous for large scale.
The issue with this would be what hydrogenation catalyst we would use, i suspect platinum dioxide as palladium would be poisoned, nickel might work
too.
Ive got both ammonium thiosulfate and sodium thiosulfate on hand as well as nitric acid. I will attempt to prepare and isolate the isoperthiocyanic
acid this weekend, sadly i have no nitrogen on hand and am not sure if i really wanna be heating this stuff up to 200°C in a distillation set up
under nitrogen in my current residence, this is quite dangerous chemistry.
It appear woelen also accidentally discovered isoperthiocyanid acid as well.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=27676#...
Edit: Just found this while browsing through that thread a second time.
http://sulphur.atomistry.com/perthiocyanogen.html
[Edited on 27-11-2018 by Assured Fish]
Sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from madness.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
