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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  | Looking on ebay one company in particular has all kinds of turbo yeast and makes a lot of claims.
They recommend the use of charcoal, from the little I know I would think when you measure by hydrometer then yes you get a high alcohol reading, but I
wonder how much of that is actually ETHANOL?
I would really like to set up some experiments with different yeasts and sugars, maybe if I can talk my dad into taking the resulting samples into
work and running them through the CG and other stuff there it might show whats in them.
Alchotech mention Dextrose, but I still doubt that would give great results. |
That is a very good question. No home brewer that I know of determines ethanol content by analysis (GC or iodometry). Density is only a rough guide. A
bit of excess sugar will probably skew density results.
Charcoal to remove certain stuff is of course folly: that stuff should not be there to begin with, unless you're making bioethanol fuel, in which case
it doesn't matter much.
Re. dextrose, I see no a priori reason why any saccharide based fermentable would be much better or worse than the next one. Again, home brew fora
will overflow with 'information' on that topic, none of it evidence based, of course.
[Edited on 1-10-2014 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer | Blogfast 25
There is one experiment that you haven't carried out - it would definitely rule out a number of things
1. Mix a drop of cyclohexane in a few ml of ethanol and mix. It should dissolve totally
2. Add water of say equal volume. That should make the mixture cloudy, as the cyclohexane goes out of solution
3. Add a couple of drops of olive oil and mix.
Measure temperature and more smell after a day. Any sign of temperature rise, OR peppermint/solvent smell.
Worth a go |
I've decided not to do this because the outcome is predetermined: ethanol is a solvent for cyclohexane, water is a solvent for ethanol and water is an
anti-solvent for cyclohexane. So adding water to an ethanol-cyclohexane mixture will push the cyclohexane out, nothing to see here.
So mixing with water would definitely be a way to drive out water insoluble denaturants, like cyclohexane and some esters.
But I noticed something else on yesterday's tube 4: the ethanol floating on the olive oil appeared to have picked up colour. Today I sucked it off
with a dropper pipette and yes, the alcohol is now coloured urine yellow.
Olive oil is of course not a pure substance (the pure triglyceride would almost certainly be colourless), so something has migrated from the oil into
the ethanol.
It might be advisable to try and extract the denaturants by means of undecane (or higher) or even a good, clean grade of mineral oil (100 %
paraffinic) to avoid that problem. Follow up with a distillation.
And working with cyclohexane and its odour, at least two types of substances spring to mind that are quite different yet smell very similarly to it:
t-butanol (and 2-methyl-2-butanol) and C7 to C9 fatty acids. I'm not claiming they are used as denaturants, only that they smell similarly to
cyclohexane.
The only way to unveil the identity of the denaturant(s?) w/o advanced analytical techniques is to extract a sufficient quantity of them and isolate
them by distillation from the extractant. Then some fairly simple tests might be used. Esters will for instance saponify with alkali (the
saponification number will give clues about the chain length and MW)
[Edited on 1-10-2014 by blogfast25]
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>>I would think when you measure by hydrometer then yes you get a high alcohol reading, but I wonder how much of that is actually
ETHANOL?
That is a very good question. No home brewer that I know of determines ethanol content by analysis (GC or iodometry). Density is only a rough guide. A
bit of excess sugar will probably skew density results.<<<<
Not only home brewers BUT most small scale professional brewers. Brix readings and density readings and correlating the two would be the most one
would do. Only the big boys who pay excise, and thus see a need to get it exactly right analyise to that depth.
That said plenty of literature and analysis on " normal yeast" shows this method is quire relyable and accurate. Push a yeast beyond its natural
tolerance, and osmotically shoke it, that's about 5% ethanol, and then things slide.
The simple observation that turbo yeast makes sooooo many unusual compounds, makes me wonder in the simple alcohol cals of normal person does, just
how much is methanol, and higher alcohols when they do the density readings and brix readings.
Thus I was a little shoked to here turbo yeast does worse than wine and sake yeast, at a mear 13.5%. With careful yeast management, I can achieve this
with normal " beer Yeast" BUT its hard work.
Thus I await with interest the results of said paper mentioned.
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>I've decided not to do this because the outcome is predetermined: ethanol is a solvent for cyclohexane, water is a solvent for ethanol
and water is an anti-solvent for cyclohexane. So adding water to an ethanol-cyclohexane mixture will push the cyclohexane out, nothing to see here.
So mixing with water would definitely be a way to drive out water insoluble denaturants, like cyclohexane and some esters.<<<
Pity you didn't follow it thru, while some results were definitely predetermined, I was curious to put to bed the exothermic reaction, did the olive
oil remove all the haze, and the smell of the olive oil. and ethanol water mix.
Unfortunately for me the exothermic observation has raised its ugly head, as another has observed it. Said the addition of the small amount of olive
oil to the ethanol/water/haze mix did get warmer. I need to distill more metho to do more rigerious experiments to see what the hell is going on here.
>>> But I noticed something else on yesterday's tube 4: the ethanol floating on the olive oil appeared to have picked up colour. Today I
sucked it off with a dropper pipette and yes, the alcohol is now coloured urine yellow.<<<<
I would have expected that, however the ethanol water mixture doesn't do that. Obviously the strength of ethanol is too low, as bottle remain clear,
doesn't mean some absorption is not occurring, just that I cant see any colour.
[Edited on 1-10-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer |
Pity you didn't follow it thru, while some results were definitely predetermined, I was curious to put to bed the exothermic reaction, did the olive
oil remove all the haze, and the smell of the olive oil. and ethanol water mix.
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You can safely put the exotherm to bed, Crafty: unless there was some chemical activity that's not obvious, nothing in the actual mixing can cause any
enthalpy releases in this system.
I'll see about the haze thing tomorrow.
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Craftbrewer
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<<<<You can safely put the exotherm to bed<<<<<
I'm sure your right. Last question to put this to bed.
You wouldn't generate heat forcing " the haze" out of the ethanol solution, or the simple absorption into oil
after this I'm ignoring this heat generated thing as an excitable thing people think they feel.
Bit like love
[Edited on 1-10-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>>Charcoal to remove certain stuff is of course folly: that stuff should not be there to begin with, unless you're making bioethanol
fuel, in which case it doesn't matter much.<<<
This got me wondering what Charcoal removes, and of course activated carbon.
Quick search found a paper where active charcoal removes quite a few hydrocarbons not good for one.
Studies regarding the Benzene, Toluene and o-Xylene Removal from waste water.
Its certainly wouldn't harm one to add a small amount to end product just to be safe
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>And working with cyclohexane and its odour, at least two types of substances spring to mind that are quite different yet smell very
similarly to it: t-butanol (and 2-methyl-2-butanol) and C7 to C9 fatty acids. I'm not claiming they are used as denaturants, only that they smell
similarly to cyclohexane.<<<
Nice to know as I haven't smelt cyclohexane. Of course cant be the denaturant, as it doesn't fit the physical observations, BUT its good for a
reference to what people smell.
smells and taste are real hard to define to others without a reference smell or taste to fall back on.
Simple exercise - describe the taste of an apple to some-one without mentioning apple. I know what the answer will be
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aga
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This is all nuts.
Freeze the original denatured ethanol, then distill it, or vice versa.
Then move on to isolating just the Ethanol, or at least removing *some* of the stuff that makes you puke (obviously not all of the ethanol).
So far it's not Science is it ?
Fred's Whiffometer versus Bill's isn't really reproducible.
If this ends well, yet Isolation of the denaturants turns out to be more expensive than some yeast and a bag of sugar, it's all bollocks innit ?
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aga
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Despite the Fnarr Fnarr, you have discovered a route to bypass all the stumbling about, arguing, fighting and vomiting.
Ethanol ==> Urine
bypassing all the regrettable side effects.
You are Nominated for a Nobel Prize, certainly.
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Craftbrewer
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I would have thought this is a prime candidate for the
IG NOBLE PRIZE
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Craftbrewer
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And in yet another interesting experiment.
The used Olive Oil smelt ok, so decided so see what happens when you heat it right up in a pot (real hot)
Well I got yet again another smell of peppermint/solvent with " the worse half" stating it definitely smelly perpermint. After a minute that just
went away and again it smelt like very hot olive oil.
I can only assume whatever the compounds absorbed into the oil, well they have disappeared and been boiled off.
This experiment continues. Interested to see whats its like when it cools again
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Craftbrewer
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Keeping all in the loop.
Boiled a cupful of ordinary olive oil and a cupfill of olive oil over the distillate. Definitely a smell difference, which would indicate the olive
oil on the distillate definteky aborbs something.
With a good amount I went right to smoking it, and got the kitchen really aromatic. With that a got a real good smell of what was coming off.
Interesting the physical boiling of the distillate olive oil. Vapour bubbles on the surface, about the size of a very small pea, and a very noticeable
"pop" sound as they well popped. Never seen that before in Olive oil that real hot. Bubble unlike water vapour would actually sit there for minutes at
a time, then pop. They eventually disappeared as I neared smoking temps (probably all the compound has been vapourised)
Change peppermint to a bitter/sweet smell, and sort of petrol like, sort of isopropanol like BUT it wasn't either, I keep going back to solvent like,
BUT again its not that either as such. Boy is this annoying. The smell is distinctive, just cant nail it.
Anyway both oils are cooling, no appreachable smell from either now. they just look and smell like hot olive oil.
More as they cool.
[Edited on 2-10-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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Craftbrewer
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And as they now drop below 40C, BOTH have that characteristic oily olive oil smell. Finger taste test has them also identical.
Will have to organise a double blind taste test, BUT whatever was in there, its gone, and also it seems no noticeable reactants either.
On the surface, the olive oil absorbed " the haze" and one can evaporate it out of the oil quite easily, making the olive oil reusable (for the next
batch).
edit - forced cooled both, and both were that classic burnt olive oil taste and smell when you use it in a deep fryer for instant. Its just olive oil
nothing else noticeable
For your information
[Edited on 2-10-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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aga
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If you've got a stack of this denatured stuff, measure some on ml, and measure some Other oils as well, like corn oil, baby oil etc.
See if they all do the same thing.
Maybe you got peppermint olive oil.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer | On the surface, the olive oil absorbed " the haze" and one can evaporate it out of the oil quite easily, making the olive oil reusable (for the next
batch).
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'Not 'on the surface' but very actually. The denaturant(s) are likely to be low boilers, at least with respect to olive oil. Evaporating off whet's
been absorbed by the oil is thus a jiffy.
That's why I keep telling to use it as a way of collecting the denaturant(s). Treat several bottles of the Ozzie Metho with the same, smallish
quantity of olive oil, prolonged shaking each time. This should give an olive oil that's fairly well 'loaded' with the mystery stuff.
To capture it you wouldn't even have to distil properly. Just load the oil in a oversized, longish text tube, heat the end where the oil is and mildly
cool the other (open) end: the mystery stuff will come of the oil and condense in the colder part of the 'apparatus'.
[Edited on 2-10-2014 by blogfast25]
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