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Xenoid
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How about.... breaking your rant into paragraphs so it is more readable!
"they could just mix Chili powder and bleach, with any common alkali, and a couple drops of antiseptic from a medicine cabinet when added to the
mixture would create chemiluminescence that would last 5 times longer than any flame or candle"
Well I've tried this and it didn't work, please supply us with the precise details......
"if our car battery runs out we think we have to buy a new one for $60 when we could just use garden sulfur, water, and a brazing kit from home depot
to make enough battery acid to refill it ten more times"
Hmmm.. most car batteries fail from shorted plates due to sulphation, adding sulphuric acid won't do any good, especially if it's made from that
concoction!
Regards, Xenoid
[Edited on 19-10-2007 by Xenoid]
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Armistice19
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Here is the link to the chemiluminescent formula stated earlier.
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2006/12/09/firefly-chemistry/
I have already done this and it works very well.
Also, I apologize for not mentioning Sulfanation earlier. I assumed that we were all familiar with this process. I, instead, was referring to a
new and more practical method of improvised sulfuric acid production. Besides, Sulfanation isn't anything that a little sand paper can't handle. Even
if the Sulfanation process was fully completed, and the anodes and cathodes had completely transformed into lead sulfate, all one would need is a new
lead electrode, and a new lead oxide cathode. This is not a problem, simply pry loose some wheel weights from your neighbor’s hubcaps, melt them
down, and then pour them into a mold to create an electrode of lead. Then for the lead dioxide cathode, all you have to do is add some Stump remover
to your battery acid to create nitric acid (Of course you would need an ice bath because the reaction is extremely exothermic) then add sufficiently
milled lead to a dilute nitric acid in order to create lead nitrate. Thermal decomposition of this will create lead oxide which can be used as the
cathode. The truth is batteries ALWAYS run out because of Sulfanation. We all know that Sulfanation creates lead sulfate, and dilute sulfuric acid. I
was much more referring to the problem related to the dilute sulfuric acid than the problem related to the lead sulfate. The lead sulfate problem is
so elementary and easy to fix that I thought the battery acid replacement problem would be much more revolutionary to address rather than the lead
sulfate which is so over discussed and repetitive.
I am also very sorry that you didn't recognize this earlier, but there were no paragraph indents or breaks because the former conglomeration of
words was in fact all but one paragraph. I'm sorry if the thesis statement didn't match the conclusion to your particular liking, but I very much
discourage the use of repetition in theoretical writing. I would much rather state a thesis in completely different words than to just repeat it as
the conclusion. As you can see, the thesis statement in the form of a rhetorical question “When it comes to buying lab equipment, what other options
do we have?” actually matches the conclusion statement “What can you create with the contents of your home?” because both are completely related
to the art of improvisation when applied to chemistry. Thus the thesis and conclusion point towards the same general theme, making this one single
paragraph. If you truly believe that the former paragraph was a long or drawn out one, I would be quite disappointed with your judgment, and I would
have to question your sources, and even the books that you have read in the past which you have used as a comparison with my writings. With the
exception that there is no indent at the beginning of my paragraph (a mistake which is constantly made by the forum posting program) the article above
is in complete and fully accurate MLA format. If there are any more questions or complaints I would be happy to answer or satisfy them. My email is
mcguffineffect@hotmail.com
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Xenoid
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Yes, yes, I am already familiar with that reference, it was quoted it in the "Glowing Tomato" thread a few months ago.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8971&a...
As I said, if you think the chilli powder method works well, please describe your precise method, because as I stated I could not get it to work. I
also have serious doubts that you were able to get luminescence which will "......last 5 times longer than any flame or candle, and at no expense to
you...." whatever that means!
Well done on the paragraph front, two is better than one, I guess!
Regards, Xenoid
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Centimeter
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Armistice,
First of all, a true scientist should always use APA rather than MLA. 
Second of all, your paragraph argument, although hilarious, is quite flawed. By your statement, every essay ever written would be a single paragraph.
Third, I think I would rather buy a battery than spend days reconstructing one.
Now back to the focus of this thread...
I can't stress enough how important it is to get a quality hotplate with a magnetic stirrer. This is quite possibly the most important item one can
have and worth shelling out a decent amount of money. I would recommend getting a corning model with a nice sized ceramic surface. Don't be cheap and
try and get away with some cooking hotplate. You'll never get even heating.
You’ll also need the synthetic chemist’s bible, also known as Vogel’s Textbook of Practical Organic Chemistry.
I am quite surprised that you guys are having so much glass breakage. I've put beakers over gasoline camping stoves and they've lasted me for years.
If you can't put it in direct contact with a hot plate, something is wrong. That's common procedure in both school and professional labs. Make sure to
check your glassware for bubbles or small cracks. If problems persist, I was thinking that a cheap solution might be to sprinkle some salt on your
hotplate to provide a small buffer region.
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Armistice19
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Lol...haha...Ok, no seriously, you're totally right centimeter. I can't argue with you there. I guess I'm just the kind of guy that enjoys that kind
of intense mechanical labor… anyway, everything you have said is extremely helpful, but remember I’m not using chemistry beakers, I’m using
flame resistant Pyrex which I found in my kitchen. It has been said that these were once a form borosilicate glass, but apparently they no longer are,
thus apparently causing the problem. I knew that there was no reason why these glass beakers should be breaking as often as they were. I am as boggled
as you are. I knew this because in my chemistry class we had always put the beaker in direct contact with hotplates and flame as well, but as a
solution, I very much appreciate your salt buffer idea. It seems very practical. Thank you, and I will try to do my rants in APA format from now on.
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Armistice19
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Xenoid, was the Alkali you used Sodium Hydroxide? If so, did you boil it down to dry crystals? Also, this artical was written way back when. I believe
H2O2 was much more concentrated back then, try gently steaming off some 3% solution to slightly concentrate it.
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Xenoid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Armistice19
Xenoid, was the Alkali you used Sodium Hydroxide? If so, did you boil it down to dry crystals? Also, this artical was written way back when. I believe
H2O2 was much more concentrated back then, try gently steaming off some 3% solution to slightly concentrate it. |
Look, have YOU actually tried this!
I have tried various approaches, using combinations of the following materials;
Chilli powder and paprika extracted with both alcohol and acetone. Sodium hydroxide in the form of fine granules / powder. Sodium hypochlorite at 4.2%
(bleach) and 13.5% (swimming pool additive). Hydrogen peroxide 3% (OTC) and 30% (swimming pool shock treatment). All that happens is the NaOH sits at
the bottom of the test tube and there is amuch effervescing when the H2O2 is added and the solution becomes warm. As for light output, it is zero,
nought, nada!
I'm not saying this doesn't work (although the article was a little sensationalist) just that I can't reproduce it. If you can please give me precise
details I will try it.
As for your statement about this (or any other chemiluminescent process) being a "free" or even cheap practical light source, that is just plain
ridiculous. "Light sticks" are OK for emergency lighting (I carry one or two when caving). In terms of "cents per lumen or candela" (whatever the
measurement is) chemiluminescence would have to be about the most expensive source of light available!
Regards, Xenoid
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Armistice19
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Never felt like putting a subject, so I don't know why I should start
I actually do want to talk to you about this and offer my aid if you would like, but we are very off subject here, mostly due to me. You should email
me at the address I posted earlier. I actually did do this experiment, and I was successful, it took me 2 or three tries but I did it. Also, I
completely understand what you are saying about this being expensive, I didn't really explain that very well. What I meant was that if you were in a
facility with all of those items already available to you (i.e.): a first aid kit, a kitchen, a janitor’s closet, then the items would be free
because technically you would be stealing them. Though I have to admit, you are completely right, it would be highly unlikely to find the pure grade
ROEBIC Sodium Hydroxide drain cleaner in a janitor’s closet, but it is also interesting to speculate. My rant was a....well...ok really, really
excessive I admit that, but it was purely theoretical, thus making it severely impractical. I was simply trying to initiate and evoke a deeper
thought, and questioning, or an "out of the box" type of thinking. I apologize, I suppose that sometimes my skepticism leads to an accommodation of
somewhat lofty thoughts, but then again it never fails to arouse a strong response.
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Xenoid
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Armistice19
I actually did do this experiment, and I was successful, it took me 2 or three tries but I did it. |
Please reply to my post, fourth from the end of the "Glowing Tomato" thread, that would be an appropriate place!
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8971&a...
Regards, Xenoid
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Armistice19
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Regarded, Armistice
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Armistice19
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Actually, I have just realized my own irresponsibility towards this agreement. In order to realistically do what you have requested, I’m going to
need a new source of borosilicate. I since have shattered all my glassware due to the previously mentioned fact that Pyrex is no longer a valid
source. I also began to vent my negative emotions about this incident by ranting about my being an improvised chemist who chooses to challenge himself
by only using OTC materials, which furthermore can only be obtained by using cash money. What I failed to mention, is that most of my anger and
negative emotions towards this matter occur specifically when other people around me begin to obtain much coveted things such as laboratory grade
chemistry equipment that is purchased via Internet/ chemical supply store. Most of this anger stems from an even more deeply rooted jealousy which
stems even furthermore from the constant ominous reminder that I can not do the same. This is due to an unfortunate incident that occurred about a
year ago with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Now that I've let the cat out of the bag, does anyone have any..ummm... suggestions?
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MagicJigPipe
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I will admit I did not read every word of this post so if someone already said this then I am reiterating.
If you buy "PYREX" glass at Wal-Mart or any store like that, it will break easily from heat stress. It is not real Pyrex. This includes, but is not
limited to, measuring cups and baking pans.
I once attempted to concentrate sulfuric acid by boiling it in a "PYREX" measuring cup and it shattered after it started to cool. Needless to say it
was quite a disaster (300mL of ~300*C 98% sulfuric acid all over my workbench/garage). I have done the same thing in the same, real Pyrex beaker like
50 times and it is still going strong. I have even heated it directly on a electric stove top (the coil kind) and it was all good. Never used a
flame but I'm sure it would be OK as well.
It pisses me off that they can put the Pyrex name on non borosillicate glass. So stupid. However, it should give you a hint when it says not to use
it on the stove.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Armistice19
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Yes... MagicJigPipe...umm… This is true, and this annoying little inconvenience is what lead centimeter to post on of his solutions to the problem.
In the above, centimeter stated that something as miniscule as a thin layer of regular table salt can make useless Pyrex, actually quite useful. At
first I was skeptical, but I recently tried this salt buffer technique with a non-borosilicate Pyrex measuring cup, a frying pan, and water. My
skepticism and fear of the past when dealing with spontaneously shattering glass and air-born acids lead me to start the experiment with a full blown
3 inch layer of table salt. Obviously the water did not boil. Then, I continued removing salt from the pan until the layer was thinned down to about
1/16th of an inch. After this the water boiled magnificently, and the glass did not shatter at all. In fact, I was able to turn my stove flame up to
its highest power, and still there was no breakage. By adding this buffer of table salt we can broaden the category of materials that we can use for
practical chemistry. I find also centimeter’s suggestion to the synthetic chemist’s bible, also known as Vogel’s Textbook of Practical Organic
Chemistry, extremely helpful. This book (though I have only read the first chapter) is by far one of the most helpful applicable aids in chemistry I
have come across (that and cavemanchemistry.com). I have now successfully boiled many chemicals with nothing but household makeshift chemistry
equipment, and it feels great, never been better, thanks centimeter.
-Armistice 19*
*See the armistice of 1918--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi...
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Eclectic
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The nice thing about being on an FBI watch list, is you KNOW you might be watched. Buy whatever you like, don't do anything illegal, and let them
waste their time watching. 
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MagicJigPipe
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Have you tried H2SO4? Something tells me non borosillicate glass would not last boiling sulfuric acid.
And iit's doubtful that water would break it even without the salt. It won't go over 100C! Unless of course you immediately threw the hot glass in
some cold water.
Besides, you can get boroglass beakers for just slightly more than mason jars so why not? Then you don't have to worry about breakage (not as much
anyway).
[Edited on 27-11-2007 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Armistice19
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Good old lime glass
Actually, I just used an old beer bottle out of the recycling. The salt buffer is extensivley useful, it is making things much easier around here. I
can use just about any glass container and still reach boiling without cracking the glass, though I have not tried sulfuric acid yet.
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Saerynide
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Canning jars (the ones with the screw on metal bands and separate lids) are incredibly heat resistant. I had some in a pot with the water on a high
turbulent boil for 1.5 hours, and they were fine. Of course, I did not remove them from the water until they had cooled.
Just make sure they are not touching the bottom of the pot directly when boiling (I threw in a bunch of forks and knives to line the bottom of the
pot)
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