Grizli7
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 1-9-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Nitroethane from ethanol
Hi all. I was bored and I accidentally found out about neural networks and decided to ask a question, how to get nitroethane from ethanol and now what
was the answer.
| Quote: | Text from AI
The synthesis of nitroethane from ethanol involves a two-step reaction process: oxidation of ethanol to acetaldehyde, followed by the nitration of
acetaldehyde to nitroethane.
Step 1: Oxidation of Ethanol to Acetaldehyde
1.In a round-bottom flask, add 100 mL of ethanol and a few boiling stones.
2.Attach a reflux condenser to the flask and heat the mixture gently using a heating mantle or oil bath.
3.Slowly add a 10% sodium dichromate solution dropwise to the flask while stirring continuously.
4.Continue heating the mixture under reflux for about 4-5 hours.
5.After the reaction is complete, cool the flask and transfer the reaction mixture to a separating funnel.
Step 2: Nitration of Acetaldehyde to Nitroethane
1.In a separate round-bottom flask, add 100 mL of acetaldehyde obtained from the previous step.
2.Place the flask in an ice bath to maintain a low temperature during the reaction.
3.Slowly add a mixture of 40 mL concentrated nitric acid and 20 mL concentrated sulfuric acid dropwise to the flask while stirring continuously.
4.Continue stirring the mixture for about 2-3 hours, ensuring that the temperature remains below 10°C.
5.After the reaction is complete, pour the reaction mixture onto crushed ice in a beaker.
6.Allow the mixture to cool and collect the resulting precipitate of nitroethane.
7.Wash the nitroethane with cold water to remove any impurities.
8.Dry the nitroethane using anhydrous sodium sulfate or a desiccant to remove any remaining water.
Note: The synthesis of nitroethane involves the use of hazardous chemicals and should only be attempted by those with proper training, adequate safety
precautions, and appropriate laboratory facilities.
|
I began to look for more information and if at the first step you can really get acetaldehyde, perhaps not quite as it offers a neural network, then
in the second step I have questions:
1. Does this work?
2. The concentrated nitric acid is indicated, but the concentration is not indicated? Is it possible to limit yourself to 70% although as far as I
remember, if a mixture of sulfur and nitric acids is used to introduce nitro -group as a nitrous agent, then there is a concentration of nitric acid
above 90%
3. Maybe it is better to use the equimolar draining of acetaldehyde and the nitrating mixture? How will the nitrous mixture act on the already formed
nitroethane? I mean which process will be more likely -oxidation or further nitrating with the formation of dinitroethane or even trinitroethane?
4. May be 10 celcius is to high? let 5 be better?
[Edit by mod]
Edited to showcase possible convention for referencing AI text.
[Edited on 13-7-2023 by j_sum1]
|
|
|
Schleimsäure
Hazard to Others
Posts: 156
Registered: 31-8-2014
Location: good ole Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Probably
|
|
My impression is, that many of the given procedures by Chat GPT don't work in practice.
Ususally nitration of acetaldehyde should give Glyoxal.
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4618
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
This entire procedure is obviously a load of crap. Don’t waste your time with Chat GPT or other AI. They don’t “know” anything about
chemistry. They just string together sentences that sound good on the surface.
I think we need a new rule on this forum of NO posting AI generated procedure, unless it’s for the sole purpose of picking it apart and making fun
of how stupid it is.
|
|
|
Texium
|
Thread Moved
12-7-2023 at 09:57 |
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Philosophically speaking does
"Note: The synthesis of nitroethane involves the use of hazardous chemicals and should only be attempted by those with proper training, adequate
safety precautions, and appropriate laboratory facilities."
rule out anyone who had to use AI to find a route from ethanol to nitroethane?
That proposed scheme is just wrong.
Laughably so.
One important thing to mention
You ask- quite sensibly "May be 10 celcius is to high? let 5 be better?".
It's possible to get problems by doing a reaction too cold.
You cool everything down, then add a bit of A to B but, because it's cold, not much happens.
So you add more A and so on.
Then you let the mixture warm up and it starts to react.
But that reaction generates heat- so the reaction gets faster.
And you get what's called "thermal runaway".
If you have to follow a recipe, use one from something reputable like Org Syn and actually follow it.
Come to think of it, read some random bits of Org Syn; it's very informative.
http://www.orgsyn.org/
|
|
|
Grizli7
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 1-9-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thank for all answers. I thought something like that -that the GPT chat can hardly offer the right path, so thanks to everyone who confirmed my fears.
As for the applicability of neural networks to syntheses, I know how scientists have developed a highly specialized neural network for chemistry.
There, Mendeleev’s numbers were used, I vaguely imagine what it is, but that is not the meaning of that. The point is that the developed neural
network with the participation of professional chemical scientists issued a working technique at best 1 out of 5. So it is possible that a working
chemical artificial intelligence will appear in the not-so-distant future.
So the question remains open- is there a way to obtain nitroethane from ethanol?
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
| Quote: | | So it is possible that a working chemical artificial intelligence will appear in the not-so-distant future. |
I doubt it.
| Quote: | | So the question remains open- is there a way to obtain nitroethane from ethanol? |
No spoonfeeding!
|
|
|
Lionel Spanner
Hazard to Others
Posts: 168
Registered: 14-12-2021
Location: near Barnsley, UK
Member Is Offline
|
|
Not directly, but J. Chem. Soc. (1944), p.24 (DOI 10.1039/JR9440000024) has a method for making it from ethyl sulphate.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
Go forth and dig here:
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
fusso
International Hazard
Posts: 1922
Registered: 23-6-2017
Location: 4 ∥ universes ahead of you
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Grizli7  | | As for the applicability of neural networks to syntheses, I know how scientists have developed a highly specialized neural network for chemistry.
There, Mendeleev’s numbers were used, I vaguely imagine what it is, but that is not the meaning of that. The point is that the developed neural
network with the participation of professional chemical scientists issued a working technique at best 1 out of 5. So it is possible that a working
chemical artificial intelligence will appear in the not-so-distant future. |
Tools like reaxys already exists.
[Edited on 230713 by fusso]
|
|
|
Schleimsäure
Hazard to Others
Posts: 156
Registered: 31-8-2014
Location: good ole Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Probably
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Grizli7 | Thank for all answers. I thought something like that -that the GPT chat can hardly offer the right path, so thanks to everyone who confirmed my fears.
As for the applicability of neural networks to syntheses, I know how scientists have developed a highly specialized neural network for chemistry.
There, Mendeleev’s numbers were used, I vaguely imagine what it is, but that is not the meaning of that. The point is that the developed neural
network with the participation of professional chemical scientists issued a working technique at best 1 out of 5. So it is possible that a working
chemical artificial intelligence will appear in the not-so-distant future.
So the question remains open- is there a way to obtain nitroethane from ethanol? |
I doubt it too. As a fellow member mentioned there is a route from sodium ethyl sulfate from 1944.
Other than that. You really think not one of 1000s of skilled German, US etc. Chemists never tried to get the relatively expensive Nitroethan out of
Ethanol/Adectaldehyde with just "mixed acid"? And a a poor trained "AI" is more capable?
Try it. I have acetaldehyde and fuming HNO3, even oleum 30%. I know, the reaction will be highly exothermic, even with proper cooling.
Lot's of crap will evolve possibly with fireworks, but no good yield of Nitroethane.
[Edited on 13-7-2023 by Schleimsäure]
|
|
|
Grizli7
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 1-9-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
I am familiar with the work with Erowid and also with the ethyl sulfate method. I am interested in, it is possible new methods of information about
which are not widespread. For example from beta alanine
|
|
|
Grizli7
Harmless
Posts: 41
Registered: 1-9-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Schleimsäure | | Quote: Originally posted by Grizli7 | Thank for all answers. I thought something like that -that the GPT chat can hardly offer the right path, so thanks to everyone who confirmed my fears.
As for the applicability of neural networks to syntheses, I know how scientists have developed a highly specialized neural network for chemistry.
There, Mendeleev’s numbers were used, I vaguely imagine what it is, but that is not the meaning of that. The point is that the developed neural
network with the participation of professional chemical scientists issued a working technique at best 1 out of 5. So it is possible that a working
chemical artificial intelligence will appear in the not-so-distant future.
So the question remains open- is there a way to obtain nitroethane from ethanol? |
I doubt it too. As a fellow member mentioned there is a route from sodium ethyl sulfate from 1944.
Other than that. You really think not one of 1000s of skilled German, US etc. Chemists never tried to get the relatively expensive Nitroethan out of
Ethanol/Adectaldehyde with just "mixed acid"? And a a poor trained "AI" is more capable?
Try it. I have acetaldehyde and fuming HNO3, even oleum 30%. I know, the reaction will be highly exothermic, even with proper cooling.
Lot's of crap will evolve possibly with fireworks, but no good yield of Nitroethane.
[Edited on 13-7-2023 by Schleimsäure] |
I can not share your skepticism regarding new ways of cognition. Behind AI the future is that a lot of money is invested in them, and if now the
attitude of errors to a positive result is permissible, then in the future, a very near future, it will inevitably change and not in favor of a
people.
As for your statement about thousands of scientists, I consider it wrong and that's why. At one time, I was very interested in the topic of obtaining
nitroalcans, but I did not find serious work about the selectivity of final products, maybe I am mistaken, but it seems to that the existing
industrial technology simply arranged all participants from manufacturers to consumers.
In addition, you do not take into account -that the cost of gas does not matter which one: ethane, propane, butane and nitric acid in some regions
can be much lower than the cost of ethanol, acetaldehyde and acids too.
You also did not take into account that science is developing and that previous generations of scientists could not be able to do the future. Also
think about what, if you already have a production plant, it doesn’t matter what, and the new technology has approximately the same profitability,
then you will not throw out the equipment and rush to a new one.
Well, finally, I’ll say about this method of cognition as an contingency, remember how Penicilin or nylon was discovered, I’m sure you can
remember a lot of examples, if you reason from this point of view, it means that it doesn’t matter how many scientists work on the problem, this
means that solution can be found absolutely contingency in any area with a non-targeted research and by the one person.
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4618
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Well let’s put it this way. If Chat GPT were to take a college organic chemistry test (one with open-ended questions not pulled directly from a
textbook, that is) it would bomb it miserably. Asking it for advice is like asking the most clueless student in a class of undergraduates who
doesn’t know what they’re talking about, but thinks that they can somehow pull one over on the professor/TA by answering everything very
confidently.
Call me a troglodyte if you wish, but I fear a world in which AI becomes smarter and more reliable. Not because I think the machines are going to take
over and physically kill us or anything like that, but because it will dumb people down. Just as we now have an obesity epidemic thanks in part to
technology that allows people to avoid using their muscles (among other factors), I foresee a stupidity epidemic if people are able to stop using
their brains.
|
|
|
Schleimsäure
Hazard to Others
Posts: 156
Registered: 31-8-2014
Location: good ole Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Probably
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | Well let’s put it this way. If Chat GPT were to take a college organic chemistry test (one with open-ended questions not pulled directly from a
textbook, that is) it would bomb it miserably. Asking it for advice is like asking the most clueless student in a class of undergraduates who
doesn’t know what they’re talking about, but thinks that they can somehow pull one over on the professor/TA by answering everything very
confidently.
Call me a troglodyte if you wish, but I fear a world in which AI becomes smarter and more reliable. Not because I think the machines are going to take
over and physically kill us or anything like that, but because it will dumb people down. Just as we now have an obesity epidemic thanks in part to
technology that allows people to avoid using their muscles (among other factors), I foresee a stupidity epidemic if people are able to stop using
their brains. |
Totally agree. Nothing to add.
@Grizli: Chat GPT "knows" a lot of basics. That's it. In many fields. It can not "replace" a skilled chemist or engineer though.
Absoluetely not at his point, and probably not in the forseeable future.
Even if it is "trained" to the max, it just derives everything from human brains in the end.
And one thing it clearly misses is intution for example.
It has just one big advantage like all computing, it is fast.
And as Texium noted, it will dumb people even more down.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
