Wurfgurf
banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 7-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hydrogenation of isopropanol
Hi, ok so I've searched the net far and wide on this subject and all I can find is oxidation of said alcohol or reduction of acetone to said alcohol.
The reason I'm proposing the question I will be is because isopropanol is a perfect, cheap, available-to-the-public solvent that I just so happen to
have on hand. However, if it gets reduced I'll have a hell of a mess on my hands, maybe. So my question is this: what is the end product of
isopropanol after it has been reduced? I understand from reading past posts that there are some really powerful minds in here and I humbly and
RESPECTFULLY remind you that I am not the most advanced in chemistry just yet (not a chemjedi). Thanks for your answers to the ones who have the
answer to this question.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"what is the end product of isopropanol after it has been reduced? "
Exhaustive hydrogenation of IPA will give methane + water.
I'm not sure why anyone would bother
[Edited on 7-1-18 by unionised]
|
|
|
Wurfgurf
banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 7-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm not TRYING to reduce this alcohol, it's the SOLVENT of choice, perhaps, for the substance I am reducing. I just needed to make sure I won't have
a, um, conglomerate of some kind. But methane and water? THAT would be acceptable.
|
|
|
Wurfgurf
banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 7-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Maybe I should ask this, what would you get if it reduces only one time, when the hydroxyl is just an h? Or does that not happen..?
|
|
|
SWIM
National Hazard
Posts: 970
Registered: 3-9-2017
Member Is Offline
|
|
It can reduce to propane as a first step.
However there are reductive reactions which couple molecules too, so it's not possible to predict anything about your reduction or its side reactions
without knowing something about it.
What reductants?
What else is in the pot?
Questions like that are vital.
|
|
|
Reboot
Hazard to Others
Posts: 141
Registered: 8-8-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
A reducing agent might strip off the (weakly) acidic hydrogen of the alcohol group, giving you isopropoxide. Aluminum isopropoxide can be produced
that way if memory serves (from aluminum amalgam.) If the reducing agent is exceptionally strong, it might further reduce it to propane. Reductions
beyond that would require fairly exotic conditions I think (like high temp thermal cracking over a catalyst.)
Generally IPA isn't very reactive (especially if kept cold), but there are a lot of options for polar aprotic solvents if you're concerned about it.
Some things have unusual sources. For instance, where I live a premium brand of plumber's PVC primer is based on THF, and DMSO is sold by the health
nuts as a skin ointment for treating arthritis.
|
|
|
Texium
|
Thread Moved
7-1-2018 at 09:50 |
Wurfgurf
banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 7-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sorry it took me so long, long day.. Anyways, the reductamt of choice, only because I discovered it's massive abundance is anhydrous ammonia, coupled
with an alkali metal, typically the lightest or second lightest as either are abundant as well. The substrate would be vanilla, or even Benzyl
alcohol, but I may play with menthol or some other aromatic thing. Typically the substance I aim to reduce is extracted in isopropanol, some of them
can really be dried as they evaporate as well. Thanks.. I had another post but it seems to have disappeared ...?.idk thanks guys, u all answer at
light speed here
[Edited on 8-1-2018 by Wurfgurf]
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4619
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Sounds like you're being cagey. You won't say exactly what the substrate is, don't seem to have an understanding of the chemistry behind what it is
you're trying to do, and won't even refer to lithium or sodium by name. I strongly suspect cookery.
|
|
|
NEMO-Chemistry
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 29-5-2016
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  | | Sounds like you're being cagey. You won't say exactly what the substrate is, don't seem to have an understanding of the chemistry behind what it is
you're trying to do, and won't even refer to lithium or sodium by name. I strongly suspect cookery. |
To be fair he did say he has another post wiped, this has happened to me a couple of times lately.
Hopefully no cookery as this sounds interesting.
off topic
Why the name change ZT? i like the new one but its confusing 
|
|
|
Wurfgurf
banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 7-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How do you not see that I said I am reducing VANIILLIN, BENZYL ALCOHOL, MENTHOL, BENZENE (maybe), and more to the point, NO "cookery" as you call it.
I apologize if I confused you with my intentions, referring to the alkali metals lithium and sodium as "the lighter two" or some such. I was just
being a nerd, trying too hard I guess, nerdness. I am definitely new to chemistry in the proper sense. I am teaching myself thru experience, reading,
watching. But as you may know, the hands on approach is the best way to truly understand what is happening. Thanks to those of u who gave me answers
to the question. And thanks to those who let me understand how not to word things that might get me in trouble. I do not break the law.
|
|
|
Wurfgurf
banned
Posts: 8
Registered: 7-1-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I saw a video clip on YouTube from this one very smart guy, he's on here too I believe. Nilered, I salute you! Anyways, in one of his videos he makes
cyclohexadiene, I believe from benzene. I intend to emulate soon. This is an intermediate for another project which I'll get into detail so you can
see then. The days are very cold and my setup is outside. The irony is that the weather is better for working with liquified gases with boiling points
below zero (-33.34 c) but as said previously, it's tough working in the super cold days, fingers go numb it's just not practical.. Anyways, I've said
enough. Besides rocketry, chemistry has grown on me.
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2284
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Reducing Isopropyl Alcohol, is pretty difficult under normal conditions.
Makes a pretty good reducing agent though. Simply heating excess Isopropyl Alcohol and Benzaldehyde together, under some conditions, could be
adequate to reduce the Benzaldehyde to Benzyl Alcohol. I've got a paper on the topic somewhere. Works surprisingly well.
|
|
|
happyfooddance
National Hazard
Posts: 530
Registered: 9-11-2017
Location: Los Angeles, Ca.
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by zed | Reducing Isopropyl Alcohol, is pretty difficult under normal conditions.
Makes a pretty good reducing agent though. Simply heating excess Isopropyl Alcohol and Benzaldehyde together, under some conditions, could be
adequate to reduce the Benzaldehyde to Benzyl Alcohol. I've got a paper on the topic somewhere. Works surprisingly well. |
I would be interested in looking at such a paper, I will try to find it. I have read that IPA is used as a combination solvent and hydrogen source in
some (obviously) high-pressure hydrogenations, but I am curious to what these "some conditions" that you mentioned actually are. I, too, have been
using IPA as a preferred solvent because of it's price, low toxicity, and in general have been pleased with its performance, but am obviously
interested in what its limits are.
Wurfgurf, why the interest in the flavor compounds? That is also where my chemistry passion takes me the most. What do you plan on reducing benzene
to?
Edit: I did find a couple papers with said reductions. They used activated alumina under microwave radiation. Very high yields converting ketones and
aldehydes to corresponding alcohols (high 80's, 90's).
[Edited on 1-9-2018 by happyfooddance]
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
You'd get alkali isopropoxide salts, but they wouldn't really be "reduced", per se, you'd just be making the salt. As long as you used a huge excess
of alkali metal to account for all the isopropanol, that would probably work, unless there's something I'm not taking into account. Alkali alkoxide
salts tend to be reducing agents in their own right, and might reduce aldehydes to alcohols.
But unless you've got buckets of alkali metal, you really ought to evaporate some of that isopropanol off first, at least, or do a vacuum
distillation.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
|
|
|
chornedsnorkack
National Hazard
Posts: 564
Registered: 16-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So the logic is like:
Step 1: a substrate is reduced with an excess of alkali metal (Na or Li)
Step 2: the reaction mixture is extracted with iPr-OH
What does the excess, so far unreacted alkali metal do to i-PrOH?
The answer seems to be that alkali metals do not reduce alcohols beyond reducing the acid hydrogen and forming an alkoxide.
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2284
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
Nope, the substrate is reduced by isopropylalcohol.
http://www.organic-chemistry.org/namedreactions/meerwein-pon...
The reduction can be accomplished by passing the reactants through a heated tube. This is handy, as a small diameter heated tube, has no problem
resisting high pressures if required.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo035251f
[Edited on 9-1-2018 by zed]
[Edited on 9-1-2018 by zed]
[Edited on 10-1-2018 by zed]
|
|
|
MrHomeScientist
International Hazard
Posts: 1806
Registered: 24-10-2010
Location: Flerovium
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Wurfgurf | | How do you not see that I said I am reducing VANIILLIN, BENZYL ALCOHOL, MENTHOL, BENZENE (maybe), and more to the point, NO "cookery" as you call it.
I apologize if I confused you with my intentions, referring to the alkali metals lithium and sodium as "the lighter two" or some such. I was just
being a nerd, trying too hard I guess, nerdness. I am definitely new to chemistry in the proper sense. I am teaching myself thru experience, reading,
watching. But as you may know, the hands on approach is the best way to truly understand what is happening. Thanks to those of u who gave me answers
to the question. And thanks to those who let me understand how not to word things that might get me in trouble. I do not break the law.
|
No worries, we just get a lot of cookery garbage posts here so it's really on people's radar. Vague descriptions of reaction conditions, particularly
involving lithium, anhydrous ammonia, red phosphorus, etc. are viewed with extra suspicion. There's no reason not to fully describe your reaction
conditions, and more often than not you won't get good answers anyway unless people know everything that's going on in your setup. It's nothing
against you; we're just trying to screen out the cooks. Stick around a while and you'll learn the forum culture. Welcome!
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
