papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
H3PO4 + Al = phosphine ?
Recently I obtained phosphoric acid, that is advertised to be of 85% concentration. When I put a ml of it into test tube, added some aluminum foil and
started to heat a vigorous gas evolution started, which I thought must be hydrogen.. BUT it smells strongly of phosphine, how could this happen, is Al
capable of reducing the acid ( P +5) to phosphine (P +3) ?
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
Phosphine has phosphorous in a -3 oxidation state, not +3.
If it was making significant amounts of phosphine, it would probably have been on fire. Maybe phosphine is just present in trace amounts.
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
I have no idea how this could happen, either. The fact that I just read "it smells like phosphine" in a matter-of-fact way is kind of disturbing,
considering its tendency to KILL people in small doses. Aluminum Phosphide, AlP, does produce phosphine on contact with water or acids, but it is
beyond me how the phosphide could have formed.
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
Also, the smell commonly associated with phosphine may or may not come from impurities of P2H4, disphosphane. You should look into whether or not this
could have formed.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
I used to get sent into a grain bin with a can of Aluminum Phosphide pellets to sprinkle on the floor before we'd fill it with wheat/corn/ rice
whatever. Would hyperventilate, hold my breath and RUN in a circle dumping them out. From what I understand, would "time-release" phosphine gas and
keep the vermin out/dead.
These bins, in fact:
(Granpa's farm, in Garland City, Arkansas)
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
What does Phosphine smell like ?
Sounds pretty useless as a poison gas if you can smell it more than once.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
aluminum phosphide:
| Quote: | It generates phosphine gas according to the following hydrolysis equation.[6]
2 AlP + 6 H2O → Al2O3∙3 H2O + 2 PH3
It is used as a fumigant when other pesticide applications are impractical and when structures and installations are being treated, such as in ships,
aircraft, and grain silos. |
I remember that stuff "smoking" on contact with the humid air in Ark-In-Saw
[Edited on 7-16-2014 by arkoma]
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
Really, typo - oxidation state is -3 in phosphine. The smell is very similar to one of technical calcium carbide when you want to make acetylene,
don't know whether it's PH3 or P2H4, but I don't think it's going to kill in that amounts (otherwise I wouldn't write here anymore). When diluted acid
is reacted with Al there's no smell anymore, so I think the concentration is important here - must be conc. H3PO4 can act as oxidizer like conc. H2SO4
does. It's pity it's only 85% and not more - might be interesting to test that.
Btw., I thought most phosphates are insoluble, but when in other experiment I add some CuSO4 to conc. acid and heat it dissolves giving blue solution,
where's the expected precipitate ?
[Edited on 16-7-2014 by papaya]
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Glad you are still here to comment.
I gotta go pronto, as i feel an AJKOER comment will be coming up any second now.
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by papaya  | | Recently I obtained phosphoric acid, that is advertised to be of 85% concentration. When I put a ml of it into test tube, added some aluminum foil and
started to heat a vigorous gas evolution started, which I thought must be hydrogen.. BUT it smells strongly of phosphine, how could this happen, is Al
capable of reducing the acid ( P +5) to phosphine (P +3) ? |
Concentrated phosphoric acid is dehydrated to a complex polyphosphoric acid mixture at elevated temperatures and can be reduced to phosphorus or
possibly phosphine by many metals. It only takes traces of phosphine to produce that characteristic odor. If you do this in the dark you will see a
greenish glow where the vapor reacts with air. When illuminated you see the smoke from the oxidation instead. But you'll see significant
smoking/glowing only after the acid has become more concentrated and heated; I used borosilicate test tubes and the acid grew hot enough that the
glass was glowing red.
I've tried the reaction with zinc, lead, tin, and aluminum. The extremely long phosphorus thread contains some discussion if you have the patience to
read it.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
Thanks Polverone, I'll read, one more question - is it possible to concentrate 85% acid even more some way (heating, maybe electrolysis?), and also I
don't understand why polyphosphoric acids should form when there's still 15% of water present, are they stable in water?
|
|
|
Ascaridole
Hazard to Self
Posts: 67
Registered: 11-9-2013
Location: Hawaii, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Searching for glass....
|
|
For the most part no, 85% is the limit for ortho phosphoric acid. If pyrophosphoric acid is not a problem yes you can heat it with awesome heating and
drive it all the way to tripolyphosphoric acid and maybe even to the meta form. P2O5 can be used to generate the tetrapolyphosphoric acid.
As for why polyphosphoric acid can exist in 85% its due to protination of an ortho phosphoric acid molecule from another ortho phosphoric molecule and
then subsequent lost of water from the protonated ortho phosphoric acid to form the pyrophosphoric acid.
Just as 98% sulfuric acid can be used for sulfonation without the need for oleum, SO3 is formed in situ due to auto protonation.
The pyrophosphoric acid does react with the 15% water but just as acetic anhydride doesn't just hydrolyze away into acetic acid when added to water
neither does pyrophosphoric acid. What is converted back into the ortho phosphoric acid once again goes through the protonation process and as you can
see an equilibrium exists.
Ascaridole, the masked bandit of chemistry!
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
The effect you observe with phosphoric acid is quite common with oxo acids and oxo anions. E.g. when you add zinc powder to moderately concentrated
H2SO4 you get small amounts of H2S (rotten egg smell). When you add zinc powder to moderately concentrated HNO3 you get lower oxides of nitrogen, but
you also may get some ammonium ions in the solution. In alkaline solution (e.g. a solution of KNO3+NaOH in water) you get ammonia if you add aluminium
and heat a little.
There is only one simple oxo anion which cannot be broken down in this way, and that is the perchlorate ion and moderately concentrated HClO4.
Breaking down perchlorate ion either requires high temperature (as in pyrotechnic mixtures) or very high concentrations (well over 70% by weight).
Adding metals like zinc or aluminium to moderately concentrated HClO4 just gives H2 and no chloride ions or HCl. Amazingly, the same so inert anion
forms an insanely reactive acid when it becomes (nearly) anhydrous. Anhydrous HClO4 even at room temperature ignites most organic stuff like paper and
reacts explosively with metals like zinc, aluminium and magnesium.
|
|
|
papaya
National Hazard
Posts: 615
Registered: 4-4-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
Yes woelen, that's what I also thought - a reduction of phosphate anion or more probably of free acid (since it takes place at high conc. only). Now
I'm interested what will happen if I try to electrolyze conc. acid - it may be reduced at cathode the same way giving off interesting products , else
the water will be electrolyzed giving more concentrated (maybe poly-) phosphoric acid. Either is good to see.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
Electrolysis of the concentrated acid will be hard. The acid is quite viscous and only weakly ionized. I expect that the current, flowing through the
liquid, will be very small and hence the electrolysis will be very slow. So, concentrating the acid in this way is not practical.
You may get small amounts of phosphine, but I do not expect more than trace amounts. You mostly will get H2 at the cathode.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
