hydrogenator
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Reduction Catalyst Substitution
After doing a little bit of searching, I still haven't been able to find out if various reduction catalysts can be substituted for one another. The
specific catalyst substitution which I am pondering is the substitution of urushibara nickel catalyst for aluminum amalgam.
I found this link
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/urushibara....
but it seems to be more concerned with the substitution of urushibara nickel for raney nickel in parr hydrogenators, while the specific reaction that
I am looking at involves no external hydrogen sources and no pressure increase. I was wondering if anybody here could have some input for me or any
experiences to share.
Thanks in advance,
hydrogenator
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | Reduction Catalyst Substitution |
Don't you mean the substitution of reducing agents. If I
understand you correctly, you want to go from carrying out a reduction with H2(g), which requires a catalyst, to using a reducing agent that doesn't
require a catalyst, correct?
As far as I'm aware, such a substitution is normally done with hydride reagents such as sodium borohydride, or if you need something stronger, lithium
aluminium hydride. While aluminium metal in amalgam form is a powerful reducing agent, it cannot supply hydrogen on it's own. So for example, it might
be able to reduce other metals to their 0 oxidation state, but it won't be able to 'hydrogenate' an alkene to alkane for example because it can't
supply the hydrogen, for that you would need hydrogen gas and a hydrogenation catalyst.
Anyhow, that's an engineer's answer, I'm sure the organic chemists here will have much more to say about it 
What compound specifically do you want to reduce?
[Edited on 19-10-2013 by deltaH]
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hydrogenator
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I was looking at doing the reduction of phenylacetone as per
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/amph.alhg.h...
After doing a bit more reading I think that I got mixed up a little. Basically, what I want to do is instead of using the aluminum amalgam as stated
in the above synthesis, substitute it with urushibara nickel as well as adding HCl and Al to produce hydrogen gas within the reaction solution. I'm
getting this idea from the following synthesis
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/amph.urushi...
which uses urushibara nickel and HCl/Al as a replacement for aluminum amalgam.
I guess that my question is whether it is possible to substitute a reducing agent(Al/Mg) with H2(g)(from Al/HCl) and a reducing catalyst(Urushibara
nickel)? Now, if you are saying that a reduction catalyst + H2(g) is more powerful than just a reducing agent that means that my substitution from a
reducing agent to a reducing catalyst + H2(g) should work, right?
[Edited on 19-10-2013 by hydrogenator]
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deltaH
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I'll leave the final reply to the organic chemists on this site, but just a small request, please stop calling it a reducing catalyst, it's called a
hydrogenation catalyst.
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bfesser
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<strong>hydrogenator</strong>, catalysts work both ways. There's no such thing as a "reducing catalyst," unless perhaps you're talking
about enzymes.
<strong>deltaH</strong>, what can you expect from someone looking to synthesize methamphetamine/analogues?
[Edited on 19.10.13 by bfesser]
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deltaH
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bfesser yeah, which is why I didn't want to give away too much of the answer 
[Edited on 19-10-2013 by deltaH]
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bfesser
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<strong>deltaH</strong>, we don't discriminate against those who look to scientifically explore the chemistry behind illicit drug
syntheses.
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deltaH
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Indeed, which is why I left it to another organic chemist here to answer
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IrC
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Quote: Originally posted by bfesser  | | <strong>deltaH</strong>, we don't discriminate against those who look to scientifically explore the chemistry behind illicit drug
syntheses. |
Does not the member stating "Basically, what I want to do is instead of using the aluminum amalgam as stated in the above synthesis" indicate this is
not merely a 'scientific study'? Therefore helping him after reading the words quoted is in effect conspiracy in his illegal 'experiments'?
How difficult is it to look at "what I want to do" to determine this is a drug cook looking for advice?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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bfesser
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I didn't mean to imply whether or not I think this guy is a cook; I merely meant to remind deltaH of the policy.
<strong>hydrogenator</strong>, try exploring the lit. outside of Erowid. You won't receive many friendly responses if you
<em>only</em> cite a website devoted to illicit drug manufacture, and no primary sources. Show some effort.
[Edited on 19.10.13 by bfesser]
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | Indeed, which is why I left it to another organic chemist here to answer
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Was my way of saying, tactfully, that this question crosses a line that I personally don't
feel comfortable answering in greater detail.
I trust this isn't a problem per say. However,
| Quote: | | deltaH, we don't discriminate against those who look to scientifically explore the chemistry behind illicit drug syntheses. |
Might be construed that by me choosing TO discriminate against answering this further, I am breaking SM policy?
...this is all very confusing 
[Edited on 19-10-2013 by deltaH]
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bismuthate
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Well if we sent this to detritus nobody would have to answer him.
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bfesser
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Oh, boy. How about I just prune this thread and we start over from the top? You guys are always reading too much into what I say. I guess I'm at
fault for not writing clearly enough.
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deltaH
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No worries bfesser I was just teasing a bit But if you prune
it, you will be depriving others of some small measure of entertainment and denying hydrogenator of the opportunity to protest
profusely against our statements.
Also, I believe that IrC has a point and others should be allowed to hear that.
[Edited on 19-10-2013 by deltaH]
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bismuthate
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True. I do love to read through the humorous posts of people like holmes1880 trying to deny things about themselves. It's hilarious.
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IrC
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I also looked at new member, less than 3 posts, right off the bat looking for specific advice on drug cookery. In my mind a reasonable person could
see this member in no other light.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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bfesser
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Huh. I think we may have scared him off. Oh well.
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bismuthate
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Well its not the first time some cook popped in to make a post and didn't come back. Speaking of drugs my Lowes isn't selling ammonia and many other
things to stop meth cooks now I need to order things.
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