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trip96
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Preparing chemicals from the beginning (from the Earth)
Hey guys, I've been interested in creating useful chemicals from the Earth for a while now and thought it would be great to start a forum where
everyone who had insight into how to do this could post their methods. This could also be a place to aggregate information.
Let's define some things, by useful I mean chemicals like: pure H2O, HCL, Acetone, Ether, Carbon, Sulphuric Acid, H2O2, NaOH, KOH, Ethanol, ect.
Chemicals that the chemist tends to use frequently and chemicals that have many uses.
By from the Earth I mean being able to produce the chemical from natural resources. So no posts about, "it'd be easier to go buy muriatic acid at the
hardware store." Or, "go buy distilled water." Let's pretend no stores exist. You're alone with minimal resources, electricity, and your glass.
I was thinking a great place to start would be into older methods of production, effectively making this a bit of a history lesson as well.
Shoot away if you're interested.
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White Yeti
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I'm tempted to mention that this topic has already been covered, albeit not in very much detail. This certainly is an interesting topic, and I admit
that makes a decent topic for a though experiment. The biggest difficulty with making reagents from the ground up, is that heavy machinery is
always necessary. This is due to the principle of economy of scale. Also, there are several different routes to make the same
chemicals; the most popular method depends on which method will yield the highest profits. The production of plastics from petrol may profitable
today, but this may not be the case 500 years from now when supply runs out.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
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plante1999
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I think I have done quite a bit of this type of chemistry. Hopefully you have seen my work. My current books series, Lab scale industrial synthesis is
not exactly what you are looking for but all the process need only natural material (aside from the labware). At the time you may fount that some
reagent/material arent natural but I have a very uge list of other preparation, for example the platinized asbestos need platinum which is a native
element, meaning that the raw material for platinum is platinum. In this exemple the asbestos is made from crysotile a native rock. If that's what you
are looking for then I may help you.
And in volume three making NaOH, KOH and HCl and few other things will be covered.
[Edited on 31-10-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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Fossil
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Just off the top of my head
Mercury from roasting Cinnabar (covered by Plante1999)
CaCO3 from limestone or seashells (covered by Plante1999)
CaO from roasting limestone
Bromine from seawater
Iodine from seaweed
Lots of stuff from your piss, Urea, KNO3, ect.
H2SO4 from roasting pyrite or other sulfide ores in the presence of water vapor, 2 FeS2 + 7 O2 + 3 H2O → Fe2O3 + 3 H2SO4 + SO2 (Also from
Plante1999)
Various chloride salts from sea water (fractional crystallization to seperate)
Sulfur, if you live next to a volcano, like Kawah Ijen
NH3 from animal horns
SiO2 from quartz or sand
Ethanol wash from fermenting sugar (needs to be distilled obviously)
Lots of stuff from wood ash
You can really do a lot if you have access to various ores.
Good luck!
[Edited on 2012-11-2 by Fossil]
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trip96
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Thanks so much so far posters!!! This is exactly what I was looking for. Keep it coming please. I will slowly compile all of the sources. Please don't
derail this into a flame war though.
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vmelkon
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My principle is doing things on a budget so I often use things I find being thrown away : copper wires, circuits, fridge compressor, metal sheets,
plstic sheets, aluminum parts, mercury from thermostats.
I make my own distilled water. I recently made some 95 molar % ethanol (97% weight). Acetone could be made by dry distillation of calcium acetate
which I've done but I didn't pursue it much. Made HNO3 via Berkland-Eyed process and made NaNO3. I wanted to make KMnO4 but that is not easy at all.
I would love to make some sulfur from H2SO4. No, I don't live next to a volcano.
As for NaOH/KOH, I might tackle that once more and this time, using equipment.
[Edited on 1-11-2012 by vmelkon]
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Nicodem
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Thread Split
1-11-2012 at 11:01 |
CHRIS25
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Not exactly awe inspiring, but I have an endless supply of calcium carbonate. Loads of white seashells from the beach dissolved in HCL. It actually
produces calcium chloride 2, but after dissolution is complete just add sodium bibicarbonate, filter and the precipitate is CaCO3 with sodium chloride
in the filtrate.
Also a good one is to boil rhubarb leaves, a lot of them, you get Oxalic acid, as long as small quantities are all you need.
[Edited on 1-11-2012 by CHRIS25]
Oh and one more for interest: Cultivate some cupriavidus matallidurans bacteria in a petri dish. Add to Gold chloride and watch them digest
everything and poop out 24k Gold nuggets Actually this is true - really.
[Edited on 1-11-2012 by CHRIS25]
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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plante1999
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I think I covered that one . I could make a list if you are interested. I have a
large list in my things, most of them which I tried but I didn't report it because it would take a lot of time to write them all.
[Edited on 1-11-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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Fossil
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That would be really cool to see.
I have noticed that you are really interested in synthesizing chemicals from natural sources. I've never tried myself, but hope to in the near future.
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ElizabethGreene
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Compost or fertile soil can be leached for Nitrates, mostly potassium nitrate.
Clean dry wood that's been heated until it stops outgassing is carbon, and condense the gas for methanol.
Fresh Wood Ash can be leached for a variety of sodium and potassium compounds. "soda ash, pot ash"
Rendered animal fats mixed with soda ash saponifies to soap, always handy in the lab.
Sodium Hydroxide mixed with methanol makes (a very nasty substance whose name I can't recall) and that with rendered animal or vegetable fats will
yield biodiesel and glycerine.
Distill pine sap for pinene and turpentine.
Yeast in honey or fruit juice creates dilute alcohols.
Agitate or bubble air through the fermented solution to generate acetic acid.
As you said, Limestone (or seashells) can be heated to make Calcium Oxide. Added to water, becomes calcium Hydroxide
Sulfuric acid is available a number of ways.
The fumes from smelting ores with sulfur compounds are sulfur dioxide and can be get you sulfuric acid.
Elemental sulfur is another way to get there.
(and once you have sulfuric acid then the world's your oyster.)
If you fire a clay pot, cook some acid, smelt some metals and bang together a battery, then you have a pile of compounds available via electrolysis.
I.e. Hydrogen + Oxygen (Water) Chlorine + Sodium (salt) and then Chlorine + Hydrogen = HCL. Potassium Chloride -> Potassium Chlorate. More
powerful electrolysis gets you to Aluminum!
If you're really into this, then the book Caveman chemistry is great. The first bit, where the guy is talking in the voice of fire and all is a bit
odd, but you can get past it then the book is brilliant. You can see many of the projects at http://cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/
Cheers,
Ellie
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vmelkon
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That would be sodium methoxide
NaOH + CH3OH -> CH3ONa + H2O
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Fossil
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That reaction would not be feasible.
2 Na + 2 CH3OH → 2 CH3ONa + H2
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ElizabethGreene
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Sodium Methoxide, spot on. "Very Nasty" is described quite well by Wickerpedia. "Sodium methoxide in methanol is a liquid that kills human nerve
cells before any pain can be felt." [Citation Needed]
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Mailinmypocket
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Quote: Originally posted by ElizabethGreene  | | Sodium Methoxide, spot on. "Very Nasty" is described quite well by Wickerpedia. "Sodium methoxide in methanol is a liquid that kills human nerve
cells before any pain can be felt." [Citation Needed] |
Well... WikiPEDIA says lots of things, I have gotten some on my skin, rinsed it off, without horrific consequences. HF(aq) is far worse.
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vmelkon
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You mean between NaOH and CH3OH? I asked about that on another forum and they said that it occurs at a certain extent. It should actually be a 2 way
arrow since sodium methoxide reacts with H2O.
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ElizabethGreene
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Inspired by another thread:
Crude Tannic acid can be leached from hardwoods, bark, or acorns.
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SM2
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I think in our competitive ("green") chemical industry, the feedstock is biomass. That, and a semi engineered bacteria (not necessarily e coli). Oh,
and the sophisticated hardware.
Maybe one day we'll be like some race a few thousand years from now, who just transmute their matter.
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trip96
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Hey guys, let me know what you think about this.
I want to make my own activated charcoal (carbon).
Here is my method and observations. I plan on making this more scientific the next time, and taking pics ect. But, exploring and having fun always
comes first. So here is what I did.
1. Used pine pallets, or "skids"
2. axed them into small pieces. Anywhere from 1 to 5 cm long, 1 to 10mm thick and 0.1 to 3 cm in width. So we're talking pretty small pieces.
3. Put the small wood pieces into a small ceramic container with a lid. I used a container that looks like a soup bowl. It would hold about 500mL of
volume. I used three of these containers.
4. I put the ceramic containers with lids full of wood pieces into my wood burning stove (right into the fire and embers). Let the ceramic full of
wood pieces bake for anywhere between 1 hour and 3 hours.
5. I noticed outgassing which was flammable (methanol vapor?) coming out of the lid seem.
6. After 45 min or so the outgassing would stop.
7. Brought container out and I had wonderful charcoal. Not the most exciting post on sci madness I know but I was happy I didn't open a pot of ash.
MY Thoughts on Activating Charcoal.
--- The goal is to make tiny pits and fissures in the charcoal for mechanical filtering. Please correct me if this is wrong ------
1. I bathed the charcoal pieces in ~25% sulfuric acid (battery type) for 20 minutes and then washed it then put it back into the stove wet.
2. My idea was to wash away a lot of the acid, but not necessarily all of it.
3. I """think""" the acid dissolves all the other stuff that isn't pure carbon, thus leaving behind little holes or pits.
4. The carbon coming out was different looking. It did look like it had been changed but again I didn't take before and after pictures.
NOW what I want to do and What I AM ASKING YOU!
1. Queens University published this paper, top of search results
https://www.google.ca/search?q=activated+carbon+nacl&rlz...
They used NaCl instead of CaCl in preparing activated carbon.
Here is my question.
How does the salt method create fissures and pits in the carbon? in simple terms please as I am a complete amateur.
There results suggest that a 50% solution of NaCl was decent in creating a carbon that at least was comparable to the activated carbon made through
the CaCl method. I would like to use this NaCl method. Can we improve it?
Finally, by leaving the carbon wet as I put it through a second "baking" would this help create the pits and fissures we need to activate the carbon?
The best activated carbon is supposedly created by burning the carbon in a steam atmosphere between 600 and 1200 degrees. Would leaving the carbon wet
provide a temporary steam atmosphere and the fire surely burns well over 800 degrees.
Let me know what you all think!!
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phlogiston
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Cysteine, a sulfur-containing amino acid, from eggs or from hair
Then Iisolate elemental sulfur from the amino acid.
Actually, you can isolate many amino acids from natural sources. Often they have been named after the source they were first isolated from or in which
they are abundant:
serine < Latin sēricum, 'silk', first obtained from silk protein
sarcosine < Greek σάρξ (sárx), 'flesh'
citrulline < Latin citrullus, 'watermelon', first isolated from watermelons
tyrosine < Greek τῡρός (tȳrós), 'cheese', easily obtained from cheese
taurine < Latin taurus, 'bull', first obtained from ox bile
ornithine < Greek ὄρνις (ornīs), 'bird', isolated from bird urine
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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bbartlog
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Cysteine is also found in duck feathers. I have a large quantity of them (I raise several hundred ducks a year for meat) and have been meaning to try
an acid hydrolysis of the feathers, but time is scarce... I'm curious though how you would obtain the elemental sulfur from the amino acid.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
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ElizabethGreene
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@bbartlog - If you incinerate the feathers could you recover the sulfur from the ash? I.e. adding the ash to water, agitate, filter, dry?
[Edit]Answering my own question, Sulfur is "practically insoluble" in H20. That's a no then.
You'd get some other pot ash compounds tho.
Follow-up question: How do you separate pot ash compounds? ;D
[Edited on 7-11-2012 by ElizabethGreene]
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tetrahedron
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how about reducing gypsum with carbon to get CaS etc? wouldn't that be an easier way to sulfur than proteins?
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vmelkon
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Yes, if you can make CaS, that's good.
I think it hydrolyses with water, generating H2S.
If you mix H2S gas and some SO2, add a little water as a catalyst, it generates a lot of sulfur.
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bbartlog
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Any fullblown incineration will send all your sulfur up the flue as SO2 or SO3 (heck, even sulfur proper will volatilize at the temperatures in an
ordinary fire). So, no. I know that SO2 and H2S can be converted to elemental sulfur via industrial processes, but I'm not at all sure how one would
go about such a thing in an amateur setting.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
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vmelkon
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| Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog | | I know that SO2 and H2S can be converted to elemental sulfur via industrial processes, but I'm not at all sure how one would go about such a thing in
an amateur setting. |
These lab guys did it. Looks easy but from what I understand, H2S is extremely poisonous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCR1HAad4ww
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