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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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I will be stopping by to check progress on this one.
DO NOT FLAME HERE.
careysub has already said most of what needs to be said. Science forum, not political forum. Documentation talks, "everyone knows" walks.
Go ahead and present your data, list and link any information sources you drew from. Present the conclusions you have drawn.
Discuss points of fact, data collection methodology, climate modeling algorithms. NOT WHO PAID FOR THE RESEARCH!!!
It is not likely possible to bring the politics & closely related economics of research funding and publication/editing of "popular science"
subjects as presented on mass media into this and maintain civility. I suggest splitting off a thread on THOSE matters in "legal and societal issues"
if you can keep a level head, presenting your sources and data... Or in "whimsy", if you want to have a shouting match. Any use of profanity, your
post will be deleted. Complete breakdown of etiquette, this goes to lockdown and/or detritus.
Quote: Originally posted by careysub  | Sigh.
When highly politicized scientific topics, in these highly politicized time, come up the discussion goes all too hell doesn't it?
(Snip)
I think maybe a site policy is a good idea for this issue, requiring that any claim on climate science be actually supported by a link to a real
science source. The quality of the links offered should tell the story pretty clearly.
*I am using this awkward, but precise, construct since terms like "accepted", "mainstream", or "consensus" that work with any other topic of science
for some reason sends global warming denialists (not an insult, if you have better descriptive term please offer) into a tizzy.
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| Quote: Originally posted by careysub | I am not a moderator here, but I am tempted here to don that hat as an affectation for a moment.
Remember the Science Madness FAQ:
"Do not start or perpetuate flame wars."
and
"If you are unable to cite references in support of an idea or as background to your question, the post belongs in Beginnings."
On the topic of climate science I would say posts without reference support should appear in Detritus.
If it includes insults also, it should be deleted.
Also, as a science site, those challenging mainstream science are taking on the burden of proof. Step up and own it. Empty scoffing won't cut it. Put
up or shut up.
[Edited on 9-12-2014 by careysub] |
[Edited on 9-12-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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careysub
International Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | well hello, people.. how did this thread suddenly get derailed onto politics?
i personally find this whole methane issue very logical..
“There are no brakes. The methane release itself results as a positive feedback from another warming-generated process, the retreat of summer sea
ice. So we have global warming causing summer sea ice retreat causing offshore permafrost thawing causing methane release causing a big instant
warming boost causing endless other positive feedbacks.” ...
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TheWikipedia page on this is pretty good. It covers the topic pretty thoroughly.
Clearly the biosphere can be become severely unstable at intervals, witness the five major mass extinction events. It is likely that it is not just
one process five times, but that are different processes that can cause.
We know of one for sure (being hit by an asteroid). Other likely ones are the emergence of a super plume from the mantle creating an extreme volcanism
event (the Deccan Traps), and the possibility of a Lake Nios type event on a global scale, where the ocean system evolves into an unstable situation
that gradually accumulate methane that is released all at once in a self-catalytic process.
But it looks like clathrates are buried too deeply to contribute much warming in the next century or two. The release would ramp up more gradually,
over many centuries, and be sustained for thousands of years. But you can get committed to this event, by getting the warming heat pulse started in a
matter of decades.
[Edited on 9-12-2014 by careysub]
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careysub
International Hazard
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Not good start Franklyn.
| Quote: | At the time 30 years ago when the speculation was , might there be global cooling , a seminal director of the present political movement in his own
words discloses this present dementia. Thermodynamics does not rank highly in the magical thinking of financial elitists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvl5OxoE3zU&feature=youtu... |
I am not sure what any of the words written above mean, but I must record for posterity the link he has provided, in case it eventually goes away. The
link is to a YouTube channel called "conspiracyrealitytv" and the title of the half hour video he suggests you watch for enlightenment is "How the
Illuminati Gained Control of the Earth's Land".
I'm not saying another word.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Attn all: this is a science site. If you want to argue against the mainstream conclusions of climate science, cite scientific literature to do so. If
you are unsure follow this rule: articles without a DOI aren't scientific literature. Youtube and co2science.org are terrible sources.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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That's 8 posts deleted for non compliance with forum policy so far.
I'm not closing and locking the thread just yet, maybe after everyone backs off, has a nice meal and a good night's sleep, hopefully even some sex-
They will be in a mood to discuss the science, in a fashion that complies with forum policy...
Or possibly I'll just go get REALLY drunk instead, and tell everyone what I think of them. Stay tuned!
OK.
I am going to keep deleting any and all posts to that thread that do not address the OP in accordance with forum policy. And in a civil and
scientifically rigorous manner.
Various posters:
Thanks much for your encouragement, but a PM is the place. The thread needs... Science.
[Edited on 9-12-2014 by Bert]
[Edited on 9-12-2014 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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mayko
International Hazard
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Geochemical Catastrophes Past
The Oxygen Revolution is another example of a runaway geochemical process, leading to climate change and mass extinction.
Briefly, the evolution of oxygenic photosynthesis shifted the earth's redox state from weakly reducing/neutral to oxidizing. Free oxygen being rather
reactive, this wrecked havoc with the environment as it existed at the time. For example, the oceans literally rusted, leaving behind deposits known
as the banded iron formations.
I am curious about why the deposits are periodic. I have heard several explanations including annual cycles and Liesegang patterning. I wonder if it
might not be a feedback loop between productivity and environmental resources, in which dissolved iron supports photosynthesis but oxygen thus
produced limits dissolved iron. (Iron is a growth-limiting nutrient in much of the ocean today.) Such a system may generate emergent episodic behavior
(compare the Lotka-Volterra predator/prey model). Oxygen output (ie, photosynthetic efficiency * population size) could be thought of as a tuning parameter
which is increased over geologic time. Moreover, if this dynamical system was subject to period-doubling, as many are, this hypothesis lends itself to
testable predictions: we should be able to, for example, measure Feigenbaum's constant in the iron bands as oxygen output increases.
Another connection to the OP is the relationship between the oxygen revolution and methane. Being a potent greenhouse gas, precambrian methane
contributed to climate, and its removal by UV-catalyzed photooxidation may have been involved in 'Snowball Earth' events. Another interesting
suggestion is that this process was limited by a negative feedback in which oxygen levels grew to the point of stabilizing a stratospheric ozone
layer, and thus limiting tropospheric methane photooxidation. It has also been proposed that the causality is reversed, and that a decline in
methanogenic bacteria (inferred from a 'nickel famine' in the oceans, nickel being an important enzyme cofactor in methanogenic enzymes today) may
have allowed oxygen to rise.
Further Reading (ask if you need a copy)
Behrenfeld, M., Bale, A., Kolber, Z., Aiken, J., & Falkowski, P. (1996). Confimation of iron limitation of phytoplankton photosynthesis in the
equatorial Pacific Ocean.pdf. Nature, 383.
Cloud, P. (1973). Paleoecological Significance of the Banded Iron Formation. Economic Geology, 68, 1135–1143.
Coale, K. H., Johnson, K. S., Fitzwater, S. E., Gordon, R. M., Tanner, S., Chavez, F. P., … Kudela, R. (1996, October 10). A massive phytoplankton
bloom induced by an ecosystem-scale iron fertilization experiment in the equatorial Pacific Ocean. Nature. Retrieved from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18680864
Dole, M. (1965). The natural history of oxygen. The Journal of General Physiology, 49(1), Suppl:5–27.
Hazen, R. M., Papineau, D., Bleeker, W., Downs, R. T., Ferry, J. M., McCoy, T. J., … Yang, H. (2008). Mineral evolution. American Mineralogist,
93(11-12), 1693–1720. doi:10.2138/am.2008.2955
Holland, H. D. (2006). The oxygenation of the atmosphere and oceans. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series B, Biological
Sciences, 361(1470), 903–15. doi:10.1098/rstb.2006.1838
Kappler, A., Pasquero, C., Konhauser, K. O., & Newman, D. K. (2005). Deposition of banded iron formations by anoxygenic phototrophic
Fe(II)-oxidizing bacteria. Geology, 33(11), 865. doi:10.1130/G21658.1
Klein, C. (2005). Some Precambrian banded iron-formations (BIFs) from around the world: Their age, geologic setting, mineralogy, metamorphism,
geochemistry, and origins. American Mineralogist, 90(10), 1473–1499. doi:10.2138/am.2005.1871
Konhauser, K. O., Pecoits, E., Lalonde, S. V, Papineau, D., Nisbet, E. G., Barley, M. E., … Kamber, B. S. (2009). Oceanic nickel depletion and a
methanogen famine before the Great Oxidation Event. Nature, 458(7239), 750–3. doi:10.1038/nature07858
Kopp, R. E., Kirschvink, J. L., Hilburn, I. A., & Nash, C. Z. (2005). The Paleoproterozoic snowball Earth : A climate disaster triggered by the
evolution of oxygenic photosynthesis. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 102(32), 11131–11136.
Rutten, M. G. (1970). The History of Atmospheric Oxygen. Space Life Sciences, 2, 5–17.
Sverjensky, D. a., & Lee, N. (2010). The Great Oxidation Event and Mineral Diversification. Elements, 6(1), 31–36. doi:10.2113/gselements.6.1.31
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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Fantasma4500
International Hazard
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taking it as that the methane is an actually legit problem that may cause serious problems in near future -- there are anaerobic bacteria producing
methane, and then there are deposits of methane as methane-hydrate
the bacterias creating methane could be dealt with adding cyanobacteria, as the anaerobic bacterias are quite sensitive to oxygen, and most of them
will die if faced with just decent ''oxygen-stressing''
another thing is the methane-hydrates which could potentially be dealt with having a bacteria feeding off the methane, converting it to CO2, taking
global warming as being a reality -- being less harmful on the environment
still supposing global warming would be an actualy problem, question is whether cyanobacterias would be able to survive in an very cold environment
with rather little amount of UV
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MrHomeScientist
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That's a real treasure trove of information, mayko, thanks for posting it. Perhaps my earlier despair (deleted by mods) was misplaced.
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careysub
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | | still supposing global warming would be an actualy problem, question is whether cyanobacterias would be able to survive in an very cold environment
with rather little amount of UV |
Being one of the most ancient forms of life on Earth, and a rich source of extremophiles, cyanobacteria are good candidates for thriving in cold, dim environments.
Most clathrates appear to be at considerable depth, and will be very slow to release, but the shallower deposits that may come into play soon might be
addressed in this way.
Iron fertilization of the ocean looks like a promising means of drawing down CO2, as does manipulating silic acid levels in the ocean.
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Chemosynthesis
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AKA the Geritol Solution. I remember having to play catch up on that when a "rogue researcher" dumped 100 tons of iron in the Indian ocean. Probably
still have papers I could find for people if that kind of thing interests any of you. Personally, the moralizing about my duties as a scientist in the
OP article really turn me off. I'm not qualified nor even really all that interested in spreading the word to the public at large, and I would prefer
unqualified people leave my field(s) alone lest they cause more harm than good.
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/iron/iron.html
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-10/rogue-geoengin...
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Fantasma4500
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thats an very interesting idea, anyhow i do understand what you mean, chemosynthesis
my idea was rather to get it out there so that people could at least think about it, not to mean every school should travel to the north pole and dump
a tonne of whatever chemical in the water they would mean could help it, the answers doesnt always come from the ones you expect to come up with
answers
but indeed, if people would just decide they know best and start doing things in attempt to help a certain problem, it could get really bad fast, the
qualified people who has thought it through should be the ones to ''pull the trigger''
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careysub
International Hazard
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The guy doing experiments without any coordination with other scientists, and international bodies charged with overseeing the health of the oceans is
a loose cannon making problems for this area of research, and greatly reducing the chance of useful results from coming out of his projects.
The idea of iron supplementation appears sound, and there seems to be growing interest in doing additional experiments like this - but ones that are
set up by a team of experts and designed to learn all of the effects - including potential negative ones.
If work progresses the scale of the experiments will need to grow in size, and picking up potential problems in advance is critical.
The fact is - the problem of rising CO2 is intractable enough* that we need to examine all options that may help us deal with it.
*This is true even if you dismiss mainstream science about current evidence for climate forcing. Ocean acidification is also a problem, and
it takes the truly clueless to deny that pushing CO2 farther and farther past anything seen in several million years is fraught with potential risks.
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aga
Forum Drunkard
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I feel that it is vitally important to emphasise the limitations of Scientific Discovery.
Yes, Science has brought us closer to understanding things never even conceived as Knowable.
Yet Nature forever throws spanners in the works, and derails even the most meticulous Scientific Method and Proof.
There is a point where one should look Up and see the sheer vastness of even our own Bodies, or Planet, and simply accept that at this stage, we
simply have not had enough time to explore, never mind fully understand, the exquisite complexity of it all.
To make predictions on a Global scale and claim Authority is Insane.
That is not to say that said prediction(s) may not come true.
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Zyklon-A
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This is slightly off-topic, but I don't want to start my own thread for such a short question...
I saw this add on YT, and I wonder if it's true. It states that when burning methane, CO2 emmisions are reduced by 60%, relative "todays
most used source of energy production".
Of course CH4 contains the lowest carbon-hydrogen ratio of any saturated hydrocarbon, but 60%?
Here's the video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=trueview-instream&...
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deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
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Related?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/18/390821/arctic-warmin...
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zed
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Did I miss it? Or, has the recent experimentation of tapping into deep-sea's methane-hydrate been omitted here.
Someone, (perhaps the Japanese government?), has been experimenting at tapping into methane-hydrate as an energy source. After all, we can only
increase the Earth's temperature by a limited amount via petroleum products. With a little luck, we could become a true sister planet to Venus.
Kitchens might become obsolete. You could do all of your cooking on your front porch. No fuel required.
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