Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Base Metals are on the Rise, Got a Furnace? Cash in now!

Base Metals are on the Rise, Got a Furnace? Cash in now!

BromicAcid - 21-3-2007 at 18:44

Being a chemist I've always had a fascination with all sorts of metals. Which means I've been paying attention to the price of nickel shooting up, up, and up. Currently it sits at $21.57/Pound which is getting somewhat impressive. The point being, I decided to search around eBay to see what nickel metal was selling for and found that there is one seller putting up base metal bullion that they are making by hand and it is selling for astronomical prices. For example:

250 Gram Nickel Bar

This nickel bar with a value of $5 or $6 is selling for $102 at the moment. I mean, there is intrinsic difficulty in melting the metal and forming it, etc. But that is just incredible.

The same seller also offers copper bars, aluminum bars, brass bars, etc. And they seem to sell fairly consistently at high premiums (especially the copper, nickel appears to be new option for them) vs. the actual cost of the metal. I just figured that our more inclined members with metal melting capabilities might find this an interesting opportunity to flood the market.

Pyridinium - 21-3-2007 at 20:22

Interesting... I'm going to have to do some reading on nickel casting, am wondering what kind of mould metal is preferred for making nickel ingots.

I don't think my little kiln can do a sustained 1550 C though, unless I feed an O2 stream into it... not that I want to burn up all that nice firebrick-and-refractory-mortar work just yet....

EDIT: there is of course the possibility of slowly feeding increased O2 into the stream for, say, a 30%-40% total concentration. That would be a little less gonzo than a pure stream of O2. I'm sure others, including you, have brought up this possiblity on the forums, but I have this cramp in my arm which at the moment prevents use of the 'search' function

I need to dig out a "Y" connector. My regulator and hosing are the cheapest Chinese variety- the regulator isn't actually bad, but the hosing failed in about 2 months.

[Edited on 21-3-2007 by Pyridinium]

Mr. Wizard - 21-3-2007 at 21:23

How long the US 5 cent coin, known as a "Nickel' will remain in circulation? It weighs 5 grams and is 75% Cu and 25% Ni. 91 coins make about a pound (455 grams). Which is worth $4.55 face value. At $3 a pound for copper that is $2.25 in copper and at $21 a pound for Nickel that's $5.25 for a total of $7.50 from $4.55 or about 1.65 times face value. I think it's the only real money any government makes.

pantone159 - 21-3-2007 at 21:29

I have read that both the US 1 cent (Zn) and 5 cent (Ni/Cu) now have metal value in excess of face value, although I haven't done the calculations myself.

Levi - 21-3-2007 at 21:30

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159
I have read that both the US 1 cent (Zn) and 5 cent (Ni/Cu) now have metal value in excess of face value, although I haven't done the calculations myself.

Yeah, but the $100 bills are made of paper so it evens out

12AX7 - 22-3-2007 at 06:57

Yeah, that happened a few months ago. Accordingly, Congress passed a law making it once again illegal to melt money. (Vis. 1960s when silver was removed from circulation and 1982 when cents were switched to zinc.)

Tim

Fleaker - 22-3-2007 at 12:16

Well I'm still melting copper

I got a good bit of nickel, 3 pounds perhaps, last year for free from this big plating place on Nickel Plate Avenue (literally that was the name). I should go hit them up for some more freebies. Melting nickel shouldn't be too hard with a proper propane furnace.

12AX7 - 22-3-2007 at 12:34

Are those the botrydial masses like T. Gray has? Gimme!!

Pyridinium - 22-3-2007 at 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Fleaker
Melting nickel shouldn't be too hard with a proper propane furnace.

True, I just like to do things as "caveman" as possible because it's a challenge, so for me it's a charcoal furnace. Including making the charcoal myself. Either way, you can melt nickel if you get the setup right.

It's a pity there's still snow on the ground... the kiln is getting lonely.

BromicAcid - 22-3-2007 at 15:07

Didn't Canada also recently make it illegal to melt down their currency? Partially because their pre 1982 nickels are supposedly 99% nickel and hence $100 in nickels is worth over $400 in melt now.

12AX7, the new law is somewhat more restrictive than the old law, it also says you can't take something like $10 in pocket change out of the country or export more than $100 in coins at the same time. But I think they mostly passed it to remind people that it is illegal since melting down currency is still defacing it and hence already illegal.

Looking forward to seeing some new base metal bullion sellers on eBay

Levi - 22-3-2007 at 16:32

I wonder if it's illegal to melt down Canadian coins if you're in the US when you do it? I happen to live about 2 miles from the Canadian border and I have more of their currency kicking around than I care to. There's no need to smuggle them across the border since the Canadians come over here to get drunk and bring their funny money with them to annoy the bartenders. I bet I could find 25-100 pre-1982 nickels without trying too hard.

The_Davster - 22-3-2007 at 16:49

Hehe....I have a small sack/pile of pre 1982 nickels

EDIT:
So I went through my loose change sack, out of a couple hundred nickels I found 8 pre 1982. I also separated out my pre 1997 pennies because they are pure copper, I got several dozen. Even found a single 1958 dime, which is made of part silver.
Then I remembered I had another sack of change, from 2003 or so. In there I got a few dozen Ni nickels and a hundred or so pure copper pennies. It appears the valuable currency is being removed from circulation actively. Collect now!

Is not the increase in metal prices a good measure of inflation?

[Edited on 22-3-2007 by The_Davster]

Magpie - 22-3-2007 at 18:05

I tried to buy a nickel rod from a major metal vendor awhile back. They would not sell it to me. They sold many other metals and exotic metal compounds and probably had a blanket policy against individual sales...prevents drug making and terrorism you know.

I recently needed some nickel to make nickel nitrate to verify the activity of my dimethylgyoxime. Fortunately I had two pre-1982 Canadian nickels. So I took a cold chisel to one of them as I only needed 1 gram. The DMG-nickel complex worked well btw, yielding a beautiful rose red precipitate.

The_Davster - 22-3-2007 at 18:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Magpie
..prevents drug making and terrorism you know.

No need to be sarcastic...if the rod is big enough its a weapon

Gotta keep those dangerous weapons out of the hands of people.

/sarcasm

[Edited on 22-3-2007 by The_Davster]

Ozone - 22-3-2007 at 18:18

Yup! The Canadian nickels are still magnetic! Ours suck

. Looks like we could really clean up with Zn on cents! Whoa...What a philosophical bitch. Dropping the gold standard used to equal paper money to paper tigers, but it looks like the Ni and Zn standard might pick it up.

Save the economy, melt the currency (it is a Capitolist society, after all

).

Whoo (R2D2),

O3

The_Davster - 22-3-2007 at 18:26

well 1997-1999 have a lot of zinc still, worth hanging onto currently, but the ammount of metal is still worth less than a cent.

Why is it that the powers that be want to keep our currency a fiat one?

Metal hoarding time

zoomer - 22-3-2007 at 19:00

How much does the energy cost to melt and refine a pound of pennies or nickels?

z

BromicAcid - 22-3-2007 at 19:00

Speaking of melting down currency (which is not what I am advocating), this seller has been putting up lots of $100 in Canadian nickels, approximately $444 in melt at this time, their auction is kind of interesting:

$100 in Canadian Nickels Pre 1982

12AX7 - 22-3-2007 at 19:22

Quote:

Originally posted by BromicAcid
But I think they mostly passed it to remind people that it is illegal since melting down currency is still defacing it and hence already illegal.

No, defacing money (the paper stuff) is criminal because it's all legal documents ("legal tender" is printed on it). Defacing currency, in this country, is legal, outside of such laws as at present. This is in contrast to other countries where you do not in fact own your money.

Tim

Waffles - 24-3-2007 at 11:27

Quote:

Originally posted by 12AX7
Are those the botrydial masses like T. Gray has? Gimme!!

Actually, I have plenty (read: pounds) from the same company (I convinced Theo to go back there, buy and bunch, and send me a bunch for my collection heh).
U2U if you're interested.

vulture - 25-3-2007 at 04:34

How on earth is anyone going to prove you melted currency to make your nickel bars? The analysis will cost more than the bar's worth.

[Edited on 25-3-2007 by vulture]

BromicAcid - 25-3-2007 at 08:00

I don't think that anyone would go through the trouble to prove it. More likely they would notice simply if you started hording the currency to some noticeable level.

unionised - 25-3-2007 at 08:18

Looks like a nice sideline for the casinos and whoever else runs slot machines.

Canadian nickel

pantone159 - 3-4-2007 at 15:46

Canadian coins, I just discovered, are indeed a nice source of nickel.

What you want, though, is mostly the 10 and 25 cent coins, these are 0.999 Ni for all dates before 2000. The 50 cent is nickel for 2000 as well, but all later dates are just nickel plated steel. The exceptions are for very old coins that have silver. Year 1999 is still pretty recent, so these should be easy to find , and 0.999 fine is quite good.
(However: See Theodore Gray's analysis of some Canadian coinage... http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Elements/028/#samp...)

Note: 1968 dates for 10 and 25 cent may contain Ag and Cu and no Ni at all, or may be all Ni, depends. You might be able to distinguish them by weight, I don't know. Earlier than 1968 are Ag/Cu, no Ni at all. Better use 1969-1999 to make sure you have Ni.

For quarters, the current spot price is about 'face' value interpreted in US dollars, e.g. 25 US cents Ni value per Canadian 25 cent piece.

Nickels are more complicated, most 1981 and earlier are also 0.999 Ni, but 1951-1954 and 1942-1945 had other compositions. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_(Canadian_coin)

Canada even minted a 1951 commemorative 5 cent 'nickel' that commemorated the 200th anniversary of its discovery, made of 0.999 Ni.

P.S. Canadian cents (1996 and earlier) are 98% Cu, better than the old US copper cents which are only 95% Cu, and have to be 1981 or older and so are uncommon.

P.P.S. Canadian gold bullion coins are much purer than US bullion, the Canadian stuff is 0.9999 Au, while most US bullion is 0.92 or so Au, the same composition that was used in circulating coins back then.

I just learned this (about the Ni anyways) just a few days ago, I'm excited to have just discovered a cool source of nickel for my element collection!

[Edited on 3-4-2007 by pantone159]

[Edited on 4-4-2007 by pantone159]

Magpie - 3-4-2007 at 16:18

Thanks pantone! My stock of reagent grade nickel just took giant surge. I was wondering what I was going to do with all the change left from visits to Canada.