Sciencemadness Discussion Board - HUMOR: Why I won't touch soluble lead compounds with a 60 foot pole

HUMOR: Why I won't touch soluble lead compounds with a 60 foot pole

Cou - 30-1-2015 at 17:18

[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]

j_sum1 - 30-1-2015 at 18:10

You do know that if your comic had included gloves, a fume hood and some sodium carbonate solution for washing down equipment, you wouldn't have had to go to all the effort of drawing a wheelchair.

Zombie - 30-1-2015 at 18:43

In High School shop we had a smelter in one corner (40 years ago). No hood/fan/ventilation of any sort.

That may explain a lot of things now.

I'll up the ante just a bit... I have a neighbor (80ish years old) whom I visit a few times a week. He's a retired plumber from New Jersey.
A few weeks ago he had a PILE of silver coins. Shinny as all get out. I noticed his hands were solid black, and I almost dropped when I saw why. He was hand polishing his coins with a gallon jar 3/4 full of mercury.
He told me the jar was more than 50 years old, and was full to the brim when he bought it. I wonder where the rest went?

[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Zombie]

Bert - 30-1-2015 at 20:41

Quote:

Little Willie, from the mirror Licked the mercury all off; Thinking, in his childish error It would cure the whooping cough.

At the funeral Willie's mother Said to Mrs. Brown, "'Twas a chilly day for Willie When the mercury went down."

Little Willie

Little Willie, in bows and sashes
Fell in the fire and was burnt to ashes,
Nowadays when the weather gets chilly
Nobody likes to poke up Willie.

Willie and three other brats
Ate up all the Rough-On-Rats;
Papa said, when Mama cried,
"Don't worry, dear, they'll die outside."

Making toast at fireside,
Nurse fell in the grate and died.
And, what makes it ten times worse
All the toast was burned with Nurse.

Yesterday my gun exploded,
When I thought it wasn't loaded;
Near my wife I pressed the trigger
Chipped a fragment off her figure.
'Course I'm sorry, and all that
But she shouldn't be so fat.

Grandpapa fell down a drain
Couldn't scramble out again
Now he's floating down the sewer
There's one grandpapa the fewer.

Little Willie, mean as hell
Threw his sister in the well
Mama said, when drawing water,
"Gee, it's hard to raise a daughter."

Willie, in a rage insane
Threw his head beneath a train
All were quite surprised to find
How it broadened Willie's mind.

Little Willie, from the mirror
Licked the mercury all off;
Thinking, in his childish error
It would cure the whooping cough.
At the funeral Willie's mother
Said to Mrs. Brown,
"'Twas a chilly day for Willie
When the mercury went down."

Little Willie, feeling mean
Pushed his sister through a screen
Mother stopped his innovations
Said it made for strained relations.

Most of these come from a little volume from the 1890's called
"Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes"

Zombie - 30-1-2015 at 20:53

I'm laughing but somehow I feel guilty...

Has everyone else noticed how all the 17th - 19th century "Kiddie Rhymes", and "Fairy Tales" would have child protective services at your house in a heartbeat?
I guess they hated their kids back then. :mad:

There once was a man from Portugal...

[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Zombie]

Bert - 30-1-2015 at 21:01

Before antibiotics, everyone understood that a quite large % of children would NOT live to adulthood, no matter what parents did. This led to a rather different attitude towards MANY child rearing related issues, and paradoxically, much more freedom afforded to minors (YO! REAL chemistry sets- With chemicals?!) . The current belief that it's terribly wrong and demanding of strenuous action whenever a child dies... Is an historical anomaly.

[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Bert]

Zombie - 30-1-2015 at 21:41

A very recent anomaly at best. You made me think (OW), and things like Child Labor laws were not enacted until the beginning of the 1900's in the US.

Heck KIDS from 8 up were working in Pennsylvania splitting slate in the 30's.

It's funny the things you know but don't realize...

careysub - 31-1-2015 at 10:04

A favorite rhyme of mine from grade school:

"Little Mary took a drink,
But she shall drink no more,
For what she thought was H2O,
was H2SO4"

careysub - 31-1-2015 at 10:06

At a pyrotechnics demonstration I once saw at the US Naval Academy the professor employed an 11 foot pole (for example to light off a weather balloon filled with hydrogen and oxygen) because he was doing things "he wouldn't do with a ten foot pole".

The Volatile Chemist - 31-1-2015 at 11:00

So, what occurs when 'tarnished lead' is 'melted'? I don't know the safety procedures for things I don't own.
And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal...

Cou - 31-1-2015 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

So, what occurs when 'tarnished lead' is 'melted'? I don't know the safety procedures for things I don't own.
And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal...

The heat from molten lead makes a vapor of lead oxide if the lead is tarnished, and you don't need to breath in much for increased cancer risk, take a big whiff and you'll end up in the hospital with a SEVERE case of metal fume fever, and if you live, live with permanent memory problems. I won't even take that risk, but I believe the safety procedure is to use some welding gas mask and gloves, ensure very good ventilation with a fan even if outside.

As for soluble lead compounds, there was someone on this forum who accidentally got a little bit of a solution of lead nitrate on his hands. Had a fever for 2 days afterwards, but he hasn't said anything about memory problems.

[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]

[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]

smaerd - 31-1-2015 at 11:44

Lead compounds are pretty horrendous considering how abundant lead is. It's hard to imagine how much tetraethyl lead used to be put into our favorite combustion engines, and exhausted to the outside world.

Bert - 31-1-2015 at 12:22

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal...

It would seem to be a limerick- But not one I've heard. Which is unusual-

My dad was a USN radio & RADAR man in WWII/Korean war. They had to send a certain amount of nonsense characters before and after the content of coded messages- And they used limericks. Filthy, dirty limericks... He knew 1,000's.

Molecular Manipulations - 31-1-2015 at 13:10

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

A vapor of lead oxide? The only stable lead oxides at above leads melting point are Pb₁₂O₁₉, Pb₁₂O₁₇, Pb₃O₄ and PbO.
Pb₃O₄ is what I assume you are talking about, which I can't seem to find a boiling point for, but it does have a vapor pressure of 1.3 kPa (at 0 °C).
From Wikipedia:

Quote:

When inhaled, lead(II,IV) oxide irritates lungs. In case of high dose, the victim experiences a metallic taste, chest pain, and abdominal pain.

Metal Fume Fever? Come on, you've got to know it doesn't come from lead, or copper sulfate!

Quote:

[...] live with permanent memory problems

I've melted lead in air more times than I can remember, and my memory is just fine!

BromicAcid - 31-1-2015 at 14:31

I know plenty of people that cast their own ammunition without any issues. Plenty of electricians that solder regularly and still use the old lead solder. The risk seems to be pretty low from my experience. Lead can be nasty, memory problems, violent tendencies, learning disorders, etc., but thankfully it tends to keep to itself. The title of the article is a bit misleading considering the content of the comic.

Anyway, I have never had metal fume fever from lead but I did get it very bad one time form zinc (which is one of the common metals to give metal fume fever). Go ahead and add a copper coated zinc penny to a melt of copper and watch it instantly vaporize. The next day you feel like you have the flu, strep throat, sand in your eyes, and cluster headaches combined.

Bert - 31-1-2015 at 14:37

I have cast a TON of Lead alloy bullets. I spent several years doing a great deal of electronics soldering, while building various research instruments, during college.

And I can't find my car keys, nor am I entirely sure who you all are!

But the limerick- I still want to hear the rest. Or did I already...

Cou - 31-1-2015 at 14:39

Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid

Anyway, I have never had metal fume fever from lead but I did get it very bad one time form zinc (which is one of the common metals to give metal fume fever). Go ahead and add a copper coated zinc penny to a melt of copper and watch it instantly vaporize. The next day you feel like you have the flu, strep throat, sand in your eyes, and cluster headaches combined.

How long did you have any aftereffects of the fever? Did you have a runny nose for almost a week after? Temporary memory problems or confusion?

macckone - 31-1-2015 at 17:03

Metal fume fever is pretty much gone in 24 hours. There are no
lasting side effects if the metal is zinc. Lead however is pretty
nasty. I expect copper would be similar to zinc since the body
metabolizes it pretty well, but I haven't actually heard of copper
causing metal fume fever. Now, the flux usually used in soldering
can give a pretty nasty headache.

cyanureeves - 31-1-2015 at 17:22

copper powder does deliver a nasty headache because i always have copper sponge residue in the crucible where i melt gold scrap.it smokes terribly too and leaves me feeling like i got rocks banging inside my head against my temples.

Molecular Manipulations - 31-1-2015 at 17:46

Quote: Originally posted by macckone

Now, the flux usually used in soldering can give a pretty nasty headache.

Indeed. Even worse was the first time I welded with a MIG wire feed welder, I think the wire is copper, or at least copper coated. I had someone grind the zinc off a galvanized pipe I was welding, but he did a lousy job so I got fume fever and chucked cookies that evening. Felt fine the next day though.

Bert - 31-1-2015 at 19:03

Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves

copper powder does deliver a nasty headache because i always have copper sponge residue in the crucible where i melt gold scrap.it smokes terribly too and leaves me feeling like i got rocks banging inside my head against my temples.

Why are you doing such things without a hood or fume extraction fan?

Zombie - 31-1-2015 at 19:04

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

There is nothing that rhymes w/ you guys. That's a problem in MY book mister... Made me look stoopid! :mad:

Zombie - 31-1-2015 at 19:08

Quote: Originally posted by Cou

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Probably forgot to mention it.

Don't forget to tip you waitress, and try the fish.
I'll be here all week!

subsecret - 1-2-2015 at 08:37

I've had metal fume fever once; it came from a galvanized tripod that I used to support the crucible in an aluminum smelter. I felt like I had the flu for several days after that.

Zombie - 1-2-2015 at 15:55

There is one other issue that is being overlooked (somewhat) Toxicity build up.
I posted in another thread how I have problems walking past a welding station or areas of a marina where copper bottom paint (cuprous oxide) has been stripped.

There is an accumulation level that may take more time than you have left to wain.

Very few welders retire without health issues.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/welding/
http://www.hse.gov.uk/welding/illness.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/81-123/pdfs/0150.pdf

I can tell you first hand.
This is what is leading me into new fields. 43 years of exposure is no small risk, granted. My point here is every exposure IS an issue. Believe it now or live with it later. Your choice.

FormerChemist - 4-2-2015 at 08:32

Reminds me of a couple of experiments I did as a kid.

Dissolved tin-lead solder in hydrochloric acid. The tin dissolved, leaving powdered lead behind. I then burnt it over the kitchen stove, under the range hood. It burned with a grayish flame, IIRC. I then wiped the red dust up off the stove and continued with a different project.

My younger brother used to melt chunks of lead wheel weights using a piece of a glow plug hooked up to a powerful transformer in his bedroom. When they got red hot, he would dump them in a glass of water.

Later on, I would dissolve lead wheel weights in a mixture of vinegar and 3% hydrogen peroxide. Safety precautions? Never heard of them. After all, its only chunks of metal, and nontoxic vinegar, and nontoxic H2O2, right? Can't be that bad?

The Volatile Chemist - 4-2-2015 at 15:35

Quote: Originally posted by FormerChemist

Reminds me of a couple of experiments I did as a kid.

Dissolved tin-lead solder in hydrochloric acid. The tin dissolved, leaving powdered lead behind. I then burnt it over the kitchen stove, under the range hood. It burned with a grayish flame, IIRC. I then wiped the red dust up off the stove and continued with a different project.

Is there anything particularly wrong with the dissolving part? Or just their poisonous-ness?