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Cou
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HUMOR: Why I won't touch soluble lead compounds with a 60 foot pole
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]
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j_sum1
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You do know that if your comic had included gloves, a fume hood and some sodium carbonate solution for washing down equipment, you wouldn't have had
to go to all the effort of drawing a wheelchair.
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Zombie
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In High School shop we had a smelter in one corner (40 years ago). No hood/fan/ventilation of any sort.
That may explain a lot of things now.
I'll up the ante just a bit... I have a neighbor (80ish years old) whom I visit a few times a week. He's a retired plumber from New Jersey.
A few weeks ago he had a PILE of silver coins. Shinny as all get out. I noticed his hands were solid black, and I almost dropped when I saw why. He
was hand polishing his coins with a gallon jar 3/4 full of mercury.
He told me the jar was more than 50 years old, and was full to the brim when he bought it. I wonder where the rest went?
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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| Quote: |
Little Willie, from the mirror Licked the mercury all off; Thinking, in his childish error It would cure the whooping cough.
At the funeral Willie's mother Said to Mrs. Brown, "'Twas a chilly day for Willie When the mercury went down."
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Little Willie
Little Willie, in bows and sashes
Fell in the fire and was burnt to ashes,
Nowadays when the weather gets chilly
Nobody likes to poke up Willie.
Willie and three other brats
Ate up all the Rough-On-Rats;
Papa said, when Mama cried,
"Don't worry, dear, they'll die outside."
Making toast at fireside,
Nurse fell in the grate and died.
And, what makes it ten times worse
All the toast was burned with Nurse.
Yesterday my gun exploded,
When I thought it wasn't loaded;
Near my wife I pressed the trigger
Chipped a fragment off her figure.
'Course I'm sorry, and all that
But she shouldn't be so fat.
Grandpapa fell down a drain
Couldn't scramble out again
Now he's floating down the sewer
There's one grandpapa the fewer.
Little Willie, mean as hell
Threw his sister in the well
Mama said, when drawing water,
"Gee, it's hard to raise a daughter."
Willie, in a rage insane
Threw his head beneath a train
All were quite surprised to find
How it broadened Willie's mind.
Little Willie, from the mirror
Licked the mercury all off;
Thinking, in his childish error
It would cure the whooping cough.
At the funeral Willie's mother
Said to Mrs. Brown,
"'Twas a chilly day for Willie
When the mercury went down."
Little Willie, feeling mean
Pushed his sister through a screen
Mother stopped his innovations
Said it made for strained relations.
Most of these come from a little volume from the 1890's called
"Ruthless Rhymes for Heartless Homes"
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Zombie
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I'm laughing but somehow I feel guilty...
Has everyone else noticed how all the 17th - 19th century "Kiddie Rhymes", and "Fairy Tales" would have child protective services at your house in a
heartbeat?
I guess they hated their kids back then.
There once was a man from Portugal...
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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Before antibiotics, everyone understood that a quite large % of children would NOT live to adulthood, no matter what parents did. This led to a rather
different attitude towards MANY child rearing related issues, and paradoxically, much more freedom afforded to minors (YO! REAL chemistry sets- With
chemicals?!) . The current belief that it's terribly wrong and demanding of strenuous action whenever a child dies... Is an historical anomaly.
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Bert]
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
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3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Zombie
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A very recent anomaly at best. You made me think (OW), and things like Child Labor laws were not enacted until the beginning of the 1900's in the US.
Heck KIDS from 8 up were working in Pennsylvania splitting slate in the 30's.
It's funny the things you know but don't realize...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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careysub
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A favorite rhyme of mine from grade school:
"Little Mary took a drink,
But she shall drink no more,
For what she thought was H2O,
was H2SO4"
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careysub
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At a pyrotechnics demonstration I once saw at the US Naval Academy the professor employed an 11 foot pole (for example to light off a weather balloon
filled with hydrogen and oxygen) because he was doing things "he wouldn't do with a ten foot pole".
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The Volatile Chemist
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So, what occurs when 'tarnished lead' is 'melted'? I don't know the safety procedures for things I don't own.
And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal..."
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Cou
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Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  | So, what occurs when 'tarnished lead' is 'melted'? I don't know the safety procedures for things I don't own.
And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal..." |
The heat from molten lead makes a vapor of lead oxide if the lead is tarnished, and you don't need to breath in much for increased cancer risk, take a
big whiff and you'll end up in the hospital with a SEVERE case of metal fume fever, and if you live, live with permanent memory problems. I won't even
take that risk, but I believe the safety procedure is to use some welding gas mask and gloves, ensure very good ventilation with a fan even if
outside.
As for soluble lead compounds, there was someone on this forum who accidentally got a little bit of a solution of lead nitrate on his hands. Had a
fever for 2 days afterwards, but he hasn't said anything about memory problems.
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]
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smaerd
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Lead compounds are pretty horrendous considering how abundant lead is. It's hard to imagine how much tetraethyl lead used to be put into our favorite
combustion engines, and exhausted to the outside world.
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Bert
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It would seem to be a limerick- But not one I've heard. Which is unusual-
My dad was a USN radio & RADAR man in WWII/Korean war. They had to send a certain amount of nonsense characters before and after the content of
coded messages- And they used limericks. Filthy, dirty limericks... He knew 1,000's.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Molecular Manipulations
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cou |
The heat from molten lead makes a vapor of lead oxide if the lead is tarnished, and you don't need to breath in much for increased cancer risk, take a
big whiff and you'll end up in the hospital with a SEVERE case of metal fume fever, and if you live, live with permanent memory problems. I won't even
take that risk, but I believe the safety procedure is to use some welding gas mask and gloves, ensure very good ventilation with a fan even if
outside.
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A vapor of lead oxide? The only stable lead oxides at above leads melting point are Pb12O19, Pb12O17,
Pb3O4 and PbO.
Pb3O4 is what I assume you are talking about, which I can't seem to find a boiling point for, but it does have a vapor pressure
of 1.3 kPa (at 0 °C).
From Wikipedia:
| Quote: | When inhaled, lead(II,IV) oxide irritates lungs. In case of high dose, the victim experiences a metallic taste, chest pain, and abdominal pain.
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Metal Fume Fever? Come on, you've got to know it doesn't come from lead, or copper sulfate!
| Quote: |
[...] live with permanent memory problems
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I've melted lead in air more times than I can remember, and my memory is just fine!
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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BromicAcid
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I know plenty of people that cast their own ammunition without any issues. Plenty of electricians that solder regularly and still use the old lead
solder. The risk seems to be pretty low from my experience. Lead can be nasty, memory problems, violent tendencies, learning disorders, etc., but
thankfully it tends to keep to itself. The title of the article is a bit misleading considering the content of the comic.
Anyway, I have never had metal fume fever from lead but I did get it very bad one time form zinc (which is one of the common metals to give metal fume
fever). Go ahead and add a copper coated zinc penny to a melt of copper and watch it instantly vaporize. The next day you feel like you have the
flu, strep throat, sand in your eyes, and cluster headaches combined.
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Bert
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I have cast a TON of Lead alloy bullets. I spent several years doing a great deal of electronics soldering, while building various research
instruments, during college.
And I can't find my car keys, nor am I entirely sure who you all are!
But the limerick- I still want to hear the rest. Or did I already...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Cou
National Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid |
Anyway, I have never had metal fume fever from lead but I did get it very bad one time form zinc (which is one of the common metals to give metal fume
fever). Go ahead and add a copper coated zinc penny to a melt of copper and watch it instantly vaporize. The next day you feel like you have the
flu, strep throat, sand in your eyes, and cluster headaches combined. |
How long did you have any aftereffects of the fever? Did you have a runny nose for almost a week after? Temporary memory problems or confusion?
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macckone
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Metal fume fever is pretty much gone in 24 hours. There are no
lasting side effects if the metal is zinc. Lead however is pretty
nasty. I expect copper would be similar to zinc since the body
metabolizes it pretty well, but I haven't actually heard of copper
causing metal fume fever. Now, the flux usually used in soldering
can give a pretty nasty headache.
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cyanureeves
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copper powder does deliver a nasty headache because i always have copper sponge residue in the crucible where i melt gold scrap.it smokes terribly
too and leaves me feeling like i got rocks banging inside my head against my temples.
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Molecular Manipulations
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Indeed. Even worse was the first time I welded with a MIG wire feed welder, I think the wire is copper, or at least copper coated. I had someone grind
the zinc off a galvanized pipe I was welding, but he did a lousy job so I got fume fever and chucked cookies that evening. Felt fine the next day
though.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Bert
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| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | copper powder does deliver a nasty headache because i always have copper sponge residue in the crucible where i melt gold scrap.it smokes terribly
too and leaves me feeling like i got rocks banging inside my head against my temples. |
Why are you doing such things without a hood or fume extraction fan?
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
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2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | So, what occurs when 'tarnished lead' is 'melted'? I don't know the safety procedures for things I don't own.
And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal..." |
There is nothing that rhymes w/ you guys. That's a problem in MY book mister... Made me look stoopid!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Cou | | Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | So, what occurs when 'tarnished lead' is 'melted'? I don't know the safety procedures for things I don't own.
And what's wrong with Portuguese people... :/ (I'm 1/2 Portuguese) That is, to quote "There once was a man from Portugal..." |
The heat from molten lead makes a vapor of lead oxide if the lead is tarnished, and you don't need to breath in much for increased cancer risk, take a
big whiff and you'll end up in the hospital with a SEVERE case of metal fume fever, and if you live, live with permanent memory problems. I won't even
take that risk, but I believe the safety procedure is to use some welding gas mask and gloves, ensure very good ventilation with a fan even if
outside.
As for soluble lead compounds, there was someone on this forum who accidentally got a little bit of a solution of lead nitrate on his hands. Had a
fever for 2 days afterwards, but he hasn't said anything about memory problems.
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou]
[Edited on 31-1-2015 by Cou] |
Probably forgot to mention it.
Don't forget to tip you waitress, and try the fish.
I'll be here all week!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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subsecret
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I've had metal fume fever once; it came from a galvanized tripod that I used to support the crucible in an aluminum smelter. I felt like I had the flu
for several days after that.
Fear is what you get when caution wasn't enough.
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Zombie
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There is one other issue that is being overlooked (somewhat) Toxicity build up.
I posted in another thread how I have problems walking past a welding station or areas of a marina where copper bottom paint (cuprous oxide) has been
stripped.
There is an accumulation level that may take more time than you have left to wain.
Very few welders retire without health issues.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/welding/
http://www.hse.gov.uk/welding/illness.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/81-123/pdfs/0150.pdf
I can tell you first hand.
This is what is leading me into new fields. 43 years of exposure is no small risk, granted. My point here is every exposure IS an issue. Believe it
now or live with it later. Your choice.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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