Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Interested in alloys via thermite.

Interested in alloys via thermite.

Jerry Bennett - 5-1-2015 at 14:44

Hello. New to the forum.
I was wondering if there are any members who have dabbled with alloying metals with a thermite powered furnace? That is my interest. It has been a while, but would like to try again. Have a few alloys I would like to try and make. Maybe exchange notes. Thanks, Jerry
Edit to say, I am not sure which forum I should use for this topic. I hope this is the one.

[Edited on 5-1-2015 by Jerry Bennett]

Bert - 5-1-2015 at 16:22

What alloys do you want to make?

There are some interesting effects to be had by using combinations of metal oxides (and other adjuncts) for thermite mixtures, one such is the "pyronol torch" composition of Iron oxide, Nickel, Aluminum and powdered PTFE.

Jerry Bennett - 5-1-2015 at 16:49

Thanks for that.

For your entertainment, here are a few vids showing my progression using a thermite furnace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_Q_IcBhHTA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVV5U14ju5A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JbIeTxaY6s
The second one, got me a patent. Well, a provisional patent.

EDIT: Here is a sketch of the final furnace design. I left out one, VERY important item though. You must insulate the thermite reaction crucible from the charcoal fire below. If you heat the reaction crucible too hot, it can react all at once. The least you will get is an awful sunburn. I use a layer of insa wool.

[Edited on 6-1-2015 by Jerry Bennett]

[Edited on 6-1-2015 by Jerry Bennett]

Bert - 5-1-2015 at 17:41

Well, GODAMN. We're having some fun now...

Could you provide some background on any engineering parameters calling for the class of alloys involved, along with your hypothesis leading to these experiment- Site policy is to provide such background information on processes and reactions proposed for discussion (outside of "beginnings", at any rate).

http://www.sciencemadness.org/madscifaq.html#2.1_Board_topic...

Are you aware of the "exotic thermites & analogues" sticky in the energetic materials sub forum? And would you like this thread merged with that one.

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=10...

Jerry Bennett - 6-1-2015 at 14:14

Sure thing. Merging with the proper forum sounds fine.
I am no professional. Just a hobbyist. My intentions are making exotic alloys with iron thermite. I have had a small bit of success, as I made an iron-rhenium-niobium nickle alloy back in 07. I call it "Rhenaissance steel". A play on spelling due to the rhenium.

More of a metallurgist, than a chemist. Some one called me a comic book metallurgist once, as an insult. I rolled with that. :cool:

I think I can alloy very dissimilar metals and/or semi metals with the thermite system. I have a hunch that the highly excited ions and electrons in the violent environment of thermite, may cause them to create more of a covalent bond than a classic metallic bond.
I make my own refractory through much trial and error. Safety is paramount. Nothing like watching, (and feeling), a 12# thermite charge to scare common sense in a guy.

Mesa - 15-1-2015 at 12:31

I remember seeing that 3rd video early last year. Did you ever get it, or any other projects done using your awesome home-made equiptment assayed?

I get the feeling it'd be insanely difficult to get the ratio of metals to within a decent accuracy for most anything more than 2 different metals due to variability of temp during the burns.
That being said, I have no experience with thermite alloys, and only minimal experience with binary thermites themselves.

franklyn - 17-1-2015 at 00:03

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=17625&...

Jerry Bennett - 20-1-2015 at 08:07

Quote: Originally posted by Mesa

I remember seeing that 3rd video early last year. Did you ever get it, or any other projects done using your awesome home-made equiptment assayed?

I get the feeling it'd be insanely difficult to get the ratio of metals to within a decent accuracy for most anything more than 2 different metals due to variability of temp during the burns.
That being said, I have no experience with thermite alloys, and only minimal experience with binary thermites themselves.

It's actually fairly easy to get proper ratios of desired alloys. If you look at my furnace design, at the bottom above the catch crucible, there is an "alloying chamber". It contains whatever alloys you wish. It also keeps them from reacting to the thermite. It is separated from the thermite mix with a simple melt door. Also a melt door at the bottom of the alloying chamber.
I did get the last few ingots tested, both with spectro and SEM. They came out quite close to what I wanted to make.

Jerry Bennett - 25-1-2015 at 15:59

Yo Bert. Would you kindly move this to the proper place. I have something in mind I would like to try. Reactive stuff. Ordered chaos, you know. Only stuff the theoretical Physicists and mad bombers know. :cool:

Thanks in advance.

chloric1 - 7-6-2024 at 18:32

I like yo suggest making master alloys. These are super concentrated feedstocks meant to be added to melted metal to make a special alloy and controlling how much alloying element you’re adding. A perfect example would be adding ferrosilicon(95%silicon) to molten copper to make silicon bronze. Only 3% silicon and trace of iron needed to do this. Other master alloys could be ferrochrome, ferrovanadium, ferrotitanium etc etc.

chornedsnorkack - 18-7-2024 at 02:38

For binary alloys, how about
https://himikatus.ru/art/phase-diagr1/AcB-AlSr.php
Al is conveniently near the start of Al-phabet, so the binary systems including Al are together, not scattered under the earlier element. Check the link on the right for Al-Tl and beyond. Note that while the frames are in Russian Cyrillic, the discussions of individual systems are English.

knowledgevschaos - 18-7-2024 at 18:43

A few people have gotten their iron oxide by rusting iron in an electrochemical cell, Nurdrange has a video on this. Could someone rust an already alloyed metal like stainless steel in this way to get the right mix of oxides for a thermite reaction that generates the alloy again?
Might be a waste of time but it sounds like an interesting idea.

chornedsnorkack - 18-7-2024 at 23:30

Now I am wondering how thermite can ever work in the first place...
https://himikatus.ru/art/phase-diagr1/Al-Fe.php
Looks like Al readily alloys with Fe.
Why does thermite produce Fe, not Fe-Al alloys?

Fulmen - 18-7-2024 at 23:54

Because the Al is oxidized to Al2O3 while the iron oxide is reduced to base metal.

chornedsnorkack - 19-7-2024 at 01:32

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen

Because the Al is oxidized to Al2O3 while the iron oxide is reduced to base metal.

Does it mean that thermite must always contain correct stoichiometric amount of Al? Any excess of Al, and unreacted Al alloys with Fe. Any shortage of Al, and iron oxide is reduced only to FeO, not Fe?

EF2000 - 19-7-2024 at 07:16

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack

Absolutely not.
When there's not enough Al, some Fe2O3 remains unreacted. When there's excess Al, it mostly burns off in the air, producing the same Al2O3 slag as the main reaction. Maybe some of Al gets into molten iron (like 0.1% or so). I don't see how it can interfere with the reaction. Millions of experiments across the world (mostly conducted by railway workers) prove that it doesn't interfere a bit.