Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Absolute Best Smoke Bomb?

Absolute Best Smoke Bomb?

goldenoranges - 14-2-2014 at 03:14

I was wondering, as far as cost/smoke, is the KN03 + Sugar the best option for smoke bombs? I have a situation that requires very rapid smoke concealment, doesn't have to last for long just so that it puts out a huge amount of smoke in a couple of seconds. I know increasing the surface area of the wax like mixture of the two chemicals above will increase the amount burnt. I was just wondering if there is something else I can use as an additive to it, maybe make it better?

Thanks!

bismuthate - 14-2-2014 at 04:34

It depends what you're after. KNO3+Sugar is very cheap but phosphorus is expensive with much better quality I say.
If you want quick smoke realease here is a not so cheap but very quick smoke bomb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1v3jFAmrQ0

[Edited on 14-2-2014 by bismuthate]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 14-2-2014 at 04:44

If you going for KNO3/Sugar, try a 70/30 ratio. More KNO3 means more K2CO3 produced which is the main ingredient of the smoke in KNSU smoke bombs, it will enjoy the advantage of faster burn rate too. You can add few % of Fe2O3 to add burn rate.

As for bismuthate's suggestion, I suggest you use potassium perchlorate instead of ammonium perchlorate because ammonium perchlorate produces no smoke upon decomposition while around 60% of potassium perchlorate is smoke, while providing more oxygen than ammonium perchlorate.

[Edited on 14-2-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

hissingnoise - 14-2-2014 at 04:59

Quote:

I suggest you use potassium perchlorate instead of ammonium perchlorate because ammonium perchlorate produces no smoke upon decomposition while around 60% of potassium perchlorate is smoke, while providing more oxygen than ammonium perchlorate.

You have it wrong again, I'm afraid ─ ammonium perchlorate contains more oxygen that the potassium salt . . .

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 14-2-2014 at 05:01

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

You have it wrong again, I'm afraid ─ ammonium perchlorate contains more oxygen that the potassium salt . . .

Yes AP contain more oxygen, but half of its oxygen used up by its ammonium cation, which is why I said KP provide more O2 than AP.

hissingnoise - 14-2-2014 at 05:19

Quote:

. . . around 60% of potassium perchlorate is smoke, while providing more oxygen than ammonium perchlorate.

An excess oxygen depresses smoke production, in any case!

goldenoranges - 14-2-2014 at 06:57

I have a bunch of potassium perchlorate, I bought it for flash powder but my aluminum was coated with some shit that made it not work, so I think I'll try it, and a also the kn03 + sugar with some fe203 since I got tons of it too.

Thanks for the help!

Praxichys - 14-2-2014 at 08:20

Don't take this the wrong way... but I'm curious about why there is a zero in place of your "O" in KNO3?

Motherload - 14-2-2014 at 08:55

I always thought that a fine vapor like suspension is very smoke like.
AP with excess fuel should produce more smoke due to NH4Cl vapor

I remember looooonnnggg time ago I accidently filled up my "lab" with some chlorine gas from aqua regia.
After a few mins I slid in a trough with ammonia solution to help absorb the Cl2 and HCl in the air. (Ammonia was the only Base I had outside)
Half hour later .... I couldn't even look inside ..... It was thick smoke which took overnight to settle.

goldenoranges - 14-2-2014 at 09:33

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

Don't take this the wrong way... but I'm curious about why there is a zero in place of your "O" in KNO3?

I get them mixed up when I am typing fast, I know its an O

Quote: Originally posted by Motherload

I always thought that a fine vapor like suspension is very smoke like.
AP with excess fuel should produce more smoke due to NH4Cl vapor

I remember looooonnnggg time ago I accidently filled up my "lab" with some chlorine gas from aqua regia.
After a few mins I slid in a trough with ammonia solution to help absorb the Cl2 and HCl in the air. (Ammonia was the only Base I had outside)
Half hour later .... I couldn't even look inside ..... It was thick smoke which took overnight to settle.

I recently filled up my "lab", haha, with sulfuric gas from sulfuric acid accidently. Won't be buying glass from a cheapo source on Ebay again... But yeah had to get my gas mask and took at least 8 hours to get it off of all the plastic stuff it didnt eat through... I am super happy I was wearing a clean room suit at the time it 'exploded' burning hot gas/liquid everywhere.

hissingnoise - 14-2-2014 at 10:58

Quote:

AP with excess fuel should produce more smoke due to NH4Cl vapor.

Not nececelery ─ the first rocket powered by AP produced practically no signature, thrilling the rocketeer to his nuts.
He then demonstrated it to a bevy of bigwigs and his rocket blasted off amid thick, choking white billows of HCl!

A relative humidity thing . . .

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 14-2-2014 at 12:11

Thats right, AP decomposes to HCl, which is colorless and does not contribute to the smoke content.

roXefeller - 14-2-2014 at 12:32

Quote: Originally posted by goldenoranges

Having held flasks of sulfuric acid minutes before they exploded, I can understand the feeling of being safe after an accident. What happened?

goldenoranges - 14-2-2014 at 12:56

Quote: Originally posted by roXefeller

Quote: Originally posted by goldenoranges

Having held flasks of sulfuric acid minutes before they exploded, I can understand the feeling of being safe after an accident. What happened?

It was cheap glass, and I had pre heated the burner I was heating it on, so when I placed it on the burner it cracked a couple of seconds after from the extreme temperature difference. I was going to purify it from 90% to 98%~ by heating the water off.

roXefeller - 14-2-2014 at 13:21

Maybe not so much cheap glass to blame, but you do want a nice source. Borosilicate might do pretty well with direct heat compared with other glass types (soda lime) but it still can't be pushed to extremes. I've broken many pyrex items from heat shock or too large of gradients. Thats why large batches are bad for inexperienced amateurs (like myself) and I don't recommend them. If any of my broken glassware had been large scale, all I can think is baaad. Small mishaps teach you plenty.

goldenoranges - 14-2-2014 at 19:43

Yeah I am an amateur chemist, but it is very fun and I have always enjoyed it. But for a little it is going on the back burner until I get some more materials to make it safer and expand what I can do, such as leibeg? condensers, etc. I know I spelt that wrong.

Motherload - 14-2-2014 at 21:36

Hexachloroethane is used as an additive for white smoke but produces HCl.
NH4Cl is very common in oxidizer sugar mixtures.
http://youtu.be/OYhB6gcVKSo
Zinc oxide also produces dense white smoke.
Certain organic dies are used for low temp coloured smoke.

One of these I am going to try and reverse engineer the marine orange smoke I have.
It does contain KClO3

Vikascoder - 15-2-2014 at 21:44

Make flash powder or gunpowder and just don't confine it in any container or they will explode now keep them on paper and just burn and you will get hell of smoke within a fraceof second .( since u need lot of smoke in the shortest time possible try it )

Motherload - 15-2-2014 at 22:08

In that rapid of a scenario .... RP with some KNO3 does wonders.
I used to make " wizard balls" with some alcohol wet RP and KNO3 dabbed and wrapped in Al foil squares.
After they dried ..... I used to huck them at a solid surface and they woul go off in a puff is white smoke and flash

APO - 18-2-2014 at 22:49

I made measured out about 32cc of KNO3 and 15cc of SU, dissolved it in water, and "cooked" it into a paste, and let it solidify. That stuff burned almost as quick as flashpowder. I measured in cc because at the time I didn't have a scale.

Also, coarse 11:1 by molar ratio of Mg/MgSO4.7H2O makes lots of quite heavy smoke.

One very odd composition I made once started from an r-candy mix like what I mentioned, but I added a pinch of potassium bitartrate, I used the so called "cook" method at precisley 100 C through most of it, but then it began to turn a light brown, and the temperature climbed to 105 C, so I let it cool. It remained a very sticky, viscouse, opaque paste once cool (slightly less viscouse than normal gif peanut butter). Then I added about half of it's volume in an 85:15 by weight ratio of NH4NO3:C ammonpulver, made with recrystalized ammonium nitrate and coarse drawing grade charcoal, with about 1 or 2 grams of 4-nitrobenzoic acid added (I heard that nitro aromatics were used as catalysts for ammonpulver, and that's the only nitro aromatic I had). I mixed it in with the r-candy paste I made, until it was a homogeneous color. I attemped to ignite a small sample, but it was very difficult to ignite, and it would not sustain combustion for more then an instant, so I thought too much water was present, and I put it in my oven at the 150 F setting in a an attempt to drive off as much water as possible without decomposing the NH4NO3. After 15 minutes, all seemed well, and after 30 minutes, it had completely liquidfied, and after a little over 45 minutes, it had auto ignited, making LOTS of smoke, MUCH more than the same amount of regular r-candy.

Addition of NH4Cl for extra smoke sounds interesting, but sounds like it would slow the burn rate down.

greenlight - 3-11-2014 at 17:25

Hi I'm new to the forum. I have an old formula i found a long time ago for an upgrade on the KNO3/sugar smoke which increases the smoke output:

Potassium nitrate 60%
White or caster sugar 40%
Paraffin wax (from supermarket) Same amount as sugar

So for example, mix 60g KNO3 with 40g sugar in a bowl. Then place 40g paraffin wax in a saucepan and place on a hotplate until it melts. When liquified, pour the wax into your KNO3/sugar mix and mix.
Now you can place it in tubes or containers. The only thing is the mix doesn't burn well in open air so it must be confined in the casing with a small ejection hole for the smoke which the fuse goes in..
Some have probably heard of this mix but I thought I would upload just in case.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by greenlight]

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 4-11-2014 at 00:22

I realized a problem with these smoke bombs we make is that the smoke is hot and rises up, and ground to ground vision is still possible!

There should be something to reduce the temperature.. umm..

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

careysub - 4-11-2014 at 06:50

Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry

I realized a problem with these smoke bombs we make is that the smoke is hot and rises up, and ground to ground vision is still possible!

There should be something to reduce the temperature.. umm..

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]

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The military addresses this by using heavier metal smokes - traditionally HC composition that produces zinc chloride smoke.

It originally consisted of:
Zinc dust 28%
Hexachlorethane 50%
Potassium perchlorate 22%

It requires a starter mixture. Traditionally it has been:
Antimony 76.4%
Zinc dust 11.8%
Potassium perchlorate 11.8%
but many other mixtures could be used I am sure, especially if you are not concerned with smoke generation during ignition.

Fast and slow compositions have since been developed:
Fast
Zinc dust 36%
Hexachlorethane 43%
Ammonium perchlorate 15%
Ammonium chloride 6%

Slow:
Zinc dust 36%
Hexachlorethane 44%
Ammonium perchlorate 10%
Ammonium chloride 10%

ZnCl2 smoke toxicity is a problem, heavy exposure can cause respiratory injury, and if you make this stuff make sure you use clean pure zinc, since heavy metal contamination will end up in the smoke.

See this document:
Attachment: ZINC BASED SMOKE COMPOSITIONS.pdf (174kB)
This file has been downloaded 1303 times

A more modern formula substitutes titanium for the zinc. It is perhaps even more effective than zinc, and is less toxic.

Here is a study on different titanium smoke compositions:

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by careysub]

Attachment: 3427-10300-1-SM.pdf (754kB)
This file has been downloaded 823 times

forgotpassword - 4-11-2014 at 10:24

Military smoke grenades are comprised of Potassium Chlorate and Lactose.

greenlight - 4-11-2014 at 18:15

The Potassium chlorate and lactose compositions would be better for more rapid smoke concealment and also burn with a lower temperature.
But isn't an organic coloured dye also required that when burnt by the oxidizer and fuel, creates the smoke by forming a fine mist of dye particles.

Bert - 4-11-2014 at 18:57

Quote: Originally posted by greenlight

But isn't an organic coloured dye also required that when burnt by the oxidizer and fuel, creates the smoke by forming a fine mist of dye particles.

This is mostly correct (colored dyes are VAPORIZED, not "burnt"!) as far as colored signal smokes are concerned.

OP is apparently interested in a CONCEALING "smoke screen". Look to the military formulations such as the Zinc based HC smokes and Titanium chloride based white smokes mentioned by carysub (Carey Sublette?! PM me if you are...) and of course , white- Phosphorus smokes...

If someone cares to pull up and post links or basic information pertaining to THEORY of SCREENING smoke production (available in the works of Tenney Davis, J. H. McLain, Herbert Ellern, Alexander Hardt, A.A. Shidlovsky...)? I am just too busy right now, and my library is 80 miles away.