Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Methanol from Windshield Washer Fluid

Methanol from Windshield Washer Fluid

bfesser - 22-2-2011 at 17:46

Yesterday, I purchased 1 gal. "homelife® windshield wash all season formula -- protects to -20°F below zero" because it plainly states on the label that it contains methanol and may cause blindness--hooray! I should have known not to expect much based on the negative blahblah below zero part, but I went ahead and distilled about 400 mL of clear colorless liquid from it. The distillate came over between 77°C and 82°C. So...ethanol, eh? Lying mother fuckers. Perhaps a it contains just a trace of methanol to justify their blasphemy.

Before anyone complains--yes, I searched for an MSDS before distilling, but found none. And, yes, my thermometer was properly placed and is perfectly accurate.

Perhaps we should have a (use this) thread to keep a record of which windshield washer fluids contain a reasonable amount of methanol, and which are shit. Also, vent your anger about false advertising.

homelife® all season -20°F formula
UPC 41163-24126
Don't bother--ethanol.

[Edited on 2/23/11 by bfesser]

crazyboy - 22-2-2011 at 17:51

It isn't false advertising, it contains methanol. The methanol isn't their as a selling point but as a warning to prevent the would be cheap drunk from getting hammered off washer fluid. I use HEET gas-line antifreeze, it's 99% pure methanol with no troublesome additives.

bfesser - 22-2-2011 at 17:57

I wasn't really in need of the methanol at the moment, and would normally seek HEET if I needed it. I just purchased the bottle on a whim on my way out of work, thinking it'd give me something to do during the snow storm. Still, solid advice. Thank you.

Eclectic - 23-2-2011 at 02:50

Also, unless you are using a fractionating column, the vapors are going to be coming out of the liquid at it's boiling point. Try redistillation.

nervSreck - 24-2-2011 at 09:53

Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy

It isn't false advertising, it contains methanol. The methanol isn't their as a selling point but as a warning to prevent the would be cheap drunk from getting hammered off washer fluid. I use HEET gas-line antifreeze, it's 99% pure methanol with no troublesome additives.

Hey what do got against cheap drunks? Just kidding. I could be wrong but methanol is just ethanol with poison added.They do this in order to avoid paying liquor taxes.You wouldn't wanna buy a bottle of Kauffman Luxury Vintage vodka for antifreeze which can cost you over two hundred dollars a bottle.(Well maybe once I get rich i'll do that after lighting a fine cuban with a stack of $100 bills?)

UnintentionalChaos - 24-2-2011 at 09:59

Quote: Originally posted by nervSreck

I could be wrong but methanol is just ethanol with poison added.

facepalm.jpg

quicksilver - 24-2-2011 at 11:09

Heet's fairly expensive for the amount sold; no? IF one has access to a janitorial suppliers there is a product using 99%+ methanol for cleaning boilers at 3-4 USD a gal.

It's to bad we don't have a "smiley" of that facepalm.jpg.

[Edited on 24-2-2011 by quicksilver]

bfesser - 24-2-2011 at 15:22

<img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_DFnlKMSrl9E/TCU-sJ6p-gI/AAAAAAAAAtk/EDuY2V_G_eA/s1600/picard-no-facepalm.jpg" />

Steve_hi - 27-2-2011 at 16:54

Isn't Methanol wood alcohol. and why bother distilling it when you can have 99.9 pure at a Rona or Canadian tire store for 6$ a gallon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

bbartlog - 27-2-2011 at 17:59

Because you don't live in Canada? The big box hardware stores in the USA don't carry pure methanol AFAIK, unless you count HEET or similar.

Intergalactic_Captain - 28-2-2011 at 02:30

The closest you'll get to the canadian experience in the US is finding a store that carries Recochem products. OT, but if you want denatured alcohol that isn't loaded with crap their version is ONLY methanol and ehtanol.... 8 years or so ago, during one of my less proud moments, I successfully made "renatured" jello shots from a carefully distilled batch - I would NOT reommend doing this, but it didn't kill me and my eyesight isn't any worse than it was... Again, NOT a good idea - God knows if the formula is still the same, but canadian regs on alcohol are much less stringent than the US.

...More on topic, the -20degF fluid is ~18% methanol tops. I tried this last year with -20, -30, and -35 rated fluids, after seeing a couple of cheap jugs and getting curious as to their methanol contents. Most -30-35 rated fluids are, IIRC, are 30-40% methanol. Check the MSDS's though - With the more expensive "fancier" fluids, propylene glycol and detergents are common additives - They won't mess up your distillation, but will throw off the temperature based estimates of methanol content. As a simple rule, stick with the cheap blue stuff - If it's pink, there's something else in it - And avoid Rain-X, although it's usually expensive enough as to rule it out as a methanol source.

When I did it, I did a simple density measurement to get a baseline - You can't always trust an MSDS. I have a 2-gallon heavy-duty gas can that I use for bulk solvent distillation - 1.5 gallons of fluid in, collect .5-.75 gallons. Move to 1-gallon can, repeat. After 3-4 simple distillations, depending on the source, methanol of ~90% puritty, the remainder water, is obtained in around ~60-70% yeild based on the source material. A slow and inefficient process, but if you've no other option or have some time to kill, it is a viable source of cheap methanol - Provided you start with -30degF rated or lower.

...Fractional distillation would be much better, but only if you do at least one simple distillation first - This will get you to 50-60% or so at least, depending on how slow you go and where you call your cutoff point. A while ago I made a "quickj-fit" system for stuff like this (DCM in particular, the goo...) - One gallon and one quart solvent cans use the same caps, and under the plastic child lock is usually a solid steel cap - This, soldered to a copper liebig, makes a simple system that can use disposable distilling vessels - And, because it's soldered on, I can and do frequently dismount it and move the condenser to paint-can and other various lids depending on what vessel it needs to fit.

bbartlog - 28-2-2011 at 06:04

'the -20degF fluid is ~18% methanol tops.'

So, what accounts for the -20F freezing point, then? Looking at the data for freezing points of aqueous mixtures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_(data_page) ) it would seem that you'd need to have about 1/3 methanol to reach that point.
Also, having distilled 'Krystal Klear -20F' windshield washer fluid and obtained a liter of methanol from a gallon of the product, while leaving significant amounts behind in the boiling flask, I can attest that the 18% figure is nonsense.

'Check the MSDS's though'

I did. http://www.unitedlabsinc.com/usa/content/pdf/msds/305msds.pd... . But that's for some sort of concentrate. Have to wonder whether it's available OTC.

'Fractional distillation would be much better, but only if you do at least one simple distillation first '

Why would you need to do a simple distillation first?

'After 3-4 simple distillations, depending on the source, methanol of ~90% puritty, the remainder water, is obtained...'

Really. Two liquids with 35C difference in boiling points and no azeotrope, and it requires such lengths to obtain decent separation? But to be fair, I should check the purity of my product and see if I need to push it through my fractionating column rather than just dry it with MgSO4.

Steve_hi - 28-2-2011 at 12:14

Are you able to get fondue fuel in the US, it too is sold by recochem over the counter and is Methanol also STP brand gas line anti freeze is methyl alcohol and it's imported. I believe from the US

mr.crow - 28-2-2011 at 18:23

On a related note I tried to buy some methanol from the University a while ago and they wouldn't let me. Said it was their most watched. wtf I can get a gallon from Canadian Tire for 6 bucks

The Canadian Tire stuff says 99.9% purity but my friend distilled it and it had significant fractions with different boiling points.

bbartlog: Usually a simple distillation strips off all the junk, then a fractional distillation to purify it.

Nilson - 2-3-2011 at 14:14

http://whatsinproducts.com/search_ingredients_result.php?che...

Looks like Snap Gas Line Anti-freeze and Pyroil Gas Line Anti-freeze have (at least they claim) high amounts.

I'd still recommend some distillation for purity of course, but they seem to be a potentially good source.

Arthur Dent - 3-3-2011 at 04:52

Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow

The Canadian Tire stuff says 99.9% purity but my friend distilled it and it had significant fractions with different boiling points.

Ow.

Goes to show you can't really rely on what the label says! That's disappointing because I have a 1 liter bottle that says 99%+ and right now, I'm just not sure anymore.

On the other hand, that might be water impurities from the atmosphere, If I recall, CH3OH sucks up water from the atmosphere quite readily, doesn't it?

I guess this is going to be a neat weekend experiment to check the purity of my methanol, and maybe frac distill some to keep in an airtight container. This will give me a reason to try out my brand new vigreux for the first time!

Robert

mr.crow - 3-3-2011 at 08:12

Im not sure about being hygroscopic, but I know it doesn't form an azeotrope with water

nervSreck - 4-3-2011 at 15:09

please excuse my stupidity, i didn't even take high school chem. i was under the assumption you wanted to drink it,but i guess you want it for a cheap solvent? sorry for wasting your time.

Arthur Dent - 4-3-2011 at 15:27

Sigh...

plante1999 - 4-3-2011 at 16:10

at canac marci in qc/can you can find 99.9 % methanol for 5dollars a gallon , no additive , all my glassware is cleaned with it.

bfesser - 4-3-2011 at 18:21

Quote: Originally posted by nervSreck

please excuse my stupidity, i didn't even take high school chem. i was under the assumption you wanted to drink it,but i guess you want it for a cheap solvent? sorry for wasting your time.

Don't worry about it. Just keep reading this forum and you'll learn a lot!

soma - 20-4-2012 at 18:48

Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver

Heet's fairly expensive for the amount sold; no? IF one has access to a janitorial suppliers there is a product using 99%+ methanol for cleaning boilers at 3-4 USD a gal.

Any more info on this? Name - brand?

Dragunov-21 - 25-4-2012 at 02:24

Just go to a motor racing supplier/store/garage.

Methanol is a race fuel, and you should be able to get it get it 99.98% pure for sweet FA.

Dragunov-21 - 25-4-2012 at 02:32

Wait, Posts: 1? wtf?

CaptainOfSmug - 11-6-2012 at 19:05

Sorry of bringing up a fairly dead thread but since it seems to fit what I'm trying to do at the moment I figure what the hell. I'm new to chemistry, and by new I mean I've only completed a handful of beginning experiments. I'm currently distilling some
-30degree menthanol. I know it's cheaper to just buy methanol but I was curious if I could do this and am doing nothing today. My question is, and it may be stupid, but how can I test the purity of this... or if my solution is even methanol? I'm assuming after my simple distillation I will have to do a fractional one but am unsure. I mostly just wanted methanol for an experient out of the "Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry". Thanks for your help in advance!

[Edited on 12-6-2012 by CaptainOfSmug]

vmelkon - 12-6-2012 at 08:35

Quote: Originally posted by CaptainOfSmug

My question is, and it may be stupid, but how can I test the purity of this... or if my solution is even methanol?[Edited on 12-6-2012 by CaptainOfSmug]

Assuming you have a methanol and water mixture :
Use a combination of techniques :
#1 measure density
#2 measure melting point (if you can cool down to −98 °C) and boiling point

and check out the density and bp data tables here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_%28data_page%29

If you want to go further, test solubility of KI in your methanol.

Sublimatus - 13-5-2013 at 20:02

This is the first thread that comes up on Google if one searches for "methanol from windshield washer fluid", so I'll deposit this here.

I'd been aware that some windshield wiper fluids contained methanol, so I hopped onto Wal-Mart's website and started poring over their MSDS. Of course, they only report ranges or < values, and the documents were all prepared in 2006, so one can hardly rely on them to give you the correct formulation.

I settled on the Super Tech Winter Formula Windshield Washer Fluid -20F Protection, which is reported as containing < 33% methanol by weight.

After fractionally distilling 69.29 grams (~75 mL) of the fluid through a vigreux column (hardly necessary, honestly), two fractions were identified.

The first was 22.91 grams of methanol, BP 64.7 °C, ρ 0.760 g/mL (-3.98% difference from literature value of 0.7918, which is reasonable considering the crappy scale and cylinder I used).

The remainder seems to be only water, plus whatever dye is used to give the blue color to the fluid.

22.91 grams of methanol from 69.29 grams is 33.06% methanol by mass (they lied! ...well, close enough

), just as the MSDS reports.

I paid 1.88 USD for 1 gallon of this fluid. That puts the cost of this methanol at 1.29 USD per liter (plus labor and electricity). Consider that HEET costs 5.64 USD per liter, and a cheaper listing on Google Shopping for 4 gallons of methanol comes out to 3.70 USD. Of course, the convenience of no work up might be worth the few dollars, but if you're cheap, bored, or have no other options, this brand is reasonable as a source of methanol if you have a Wal-Mart nearby.

Hope this is helpful to someone in the future.

[Edited on 5/14/2013 by Sublimatus]

binaryclock01 - 13-5-2013 at 20:23

Quote: Originally posted by Steve_hi

Isn't Methanol wood alcohol. and why bother distilling it when you can have 99.9 pure at a Rona or Canadian tire store for 6$ a gallon?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

Hey Steve it's binaryclock using this binaryclock01 account because I forgot my pass on my main and it's not emailing me a reset for some reason.

Anyways, what are the products in CT or Rona that are 99% pure?

thanks,

bc

binaryclock - 14-5-2013 at 09:42

Got my account back, thanks woelen.. And I did find the methyl hydrate 99.9% pure in Rona today. Does anyone have an MDMS sheet on it?

http://www.rona.ca/en/methyl-hydrate

hyfalcon - 14-5-2013 at 10:01

If you have a truck stop around you here is another source.

http://www.cmcss.net/documents/safety/msds_busmnt/Power%20Se...

zed - 14-5-2013 at 12:32

Just go on line. Look for folks advertising Biodiesel supplies.

They will be happy to sell you all of the anhydrous Methanol you could possibly want. Probably at a very friendly price.

Around here, a short drive and a few bucks, and bingo!

DeadHead - 15-5-2013 at 05:28

Quote: Originally posted by hyfalcon

If you have a truck stop around you here is another source.

http://www.cmcss.net/documents/safety/msds_busmnt/Power%20Se...

Not just truck stops, auto parts stores as well... http://partimages.genpt.com/partimages/716531.pdf
My NAPA store sells in gallons and quarts. 55 gal drums available by special order

Fantasma4500 - 15-5-2013 at 06:50

apart from the fact that this thread just made my day, i heard something about some at my school planning to supercool some of this windshield cleaner stuff
~5% ethanol IIRC
told them its better to fractionally distill methylated spirits which is not more than 7% methanol
im pretty sure that i got to fractionally by distill it by accident, had something dissolved in it and boiling it away just like that could be pretty dangerous as in the stuff burns pretty well and a ~40 m2 room.. yea you guys see the idea..

the first i didnt get anything distilled over, suddenly magically i had 70 mL
IIRC methanol has a lower BP than ethanol, therefore making it plausible that i boiled all the methanol away and only got ethanol over
i put my 70 mL of precious poison in a 0.5 litre soda bottle, poured in salt and added a big piece of folded up aluminium foil (as methanol reacts with aluminium oxide i believe it was stated to pretty much decompose into CO2 and H2O)
so ethanol should be possible for this
if you wanna test for methanol you COULD potentially try taking a 0.5 litre bottle, fill it half with the liquid you dont know what is
then put in a long piece of aluminium foil, squeeze the bottle and put on the lid tight

any gas formed will expand the bottle, by that you can see if theres methanol in it (:

zed - 16-5-2013 at 15:41

Take me now, Lord. I've had enough.