Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Society's Perception of Our Chemistry Hobby

TheApplianceOfScience - 4-3-2008 at 18:11

Hi, I'm a new member and like to kick-off with a post about society's attitudes, ignorance and perception of our hobby.

From my observations and personal experience, the general public lacking decent knowledge of chemistry are rather ignorant; they could see a conical flask of blue copper sulphate solution and instantly think that it could explode at any moment, or killl everyone with deadly fumes! They view us (amateur chemists) as socially inept geeks, nerds, drug cooks or b*mb makers! I am studying chemistry at Degree level, and when I tell people about this, their response is like: "Can you make a chemical b*mb"?, or "have you blown anything up yet?".
My interest in chemistry errs towards pyrotechnics and rocketry, but I also have an interest in natural product chemistry and organic synthesis.
By the way, just out of curiosity, what are the age ranges of our forum members? Do we have any adults among us, as opposed to kids who simply want to burn pyrotechnic mixtures on the floor?!

chemkid - 4-3-2008 at 18:51

Not every kid is just obsessed with lighting gasoline in any way possible! Yeah, i have done that sort of stuff (never gasoline though), but i mostly do real chemistry: synthesize things, extractions etc etc.

Chemkid

BromicAcid - 4-3-2008 at 19:29

There are a few polls laying around that can give you an idea of the demographic around here. Though some of them are hard to find due to the search engine (I recommend searching through google, just add site:sciencemadness.org to the end of your search string to return results strictly from this site.)

What's the average age?
What is your level of eduction?
What sex are you?

Taking the numbers at face value the majority of us here are somewhat well educated males, and we tend to fall into older age brackets than some people might presume. Of course we only have numbers from the people that have found and decided to vote in the polls so it is far from comprehensive. There is a thread though containing most of the polls to a point a year or three ago that can help give you similar info, check it out here:

Polls, do you vote in them?

Regarding your feelings on the public opinion of chemistry, you're preaching to the choir here. Most of us feel the same way though the degree we feel it ranges from mild annoyance to out and out anger. I don't think there is a dedicated topic to the subject, but we usually get our jibs in here and there.

Regardless, welcome to the forum.

[Edited on 3/4/2008 by BromicAcid]

Ozone - 4-3-2008 at 19:38

Thanks, HBr!

I noticed, just now, that there is no whimsy option in the search engine (perhaps this is intentional). For some reason, despite having been through these threads previously, I did not think to check forum matters. I knew those threads were here somewhere...

Anyway, yes. There are practitioners of every level represented here. Likewise, they are present at almost every literate age, sex, sect, etc.

Welcome and...

Cheers,

O3

[Edited on 4-3-2008 by Ozone]

UnintentionalChaos - 4-3-2008 at 22:48

Quote:
Originally posted by TheApplianceOfScience
From my observations and personal experience, the general public lacking decent knowledge of chemistry are rather ignorant


You'll find we complain about this quite often. Not without good reason of course, because it's true.

O3, shouldn't Bromic be HBrO3?

Anyway, welcome to the forum.
-UC

woelen - 4-3-2008 at 23:54

Yep, that guy is called HBrO3. But unlike the chemical, he is a good guy :D

I myself am 42 years old already, so not every one here is a young boy, doing home chemistry. There are quite a few more members who already are in their 30's or 40's, some even are older.

All in all, the level of this forum is good, much better than so many other forums, which either attract the typical K3Wl/b0Mz type of persons or just persons who want assistence with their homework.

Unfortunately, the general public has a negative perception, when it comes to home chemistry (and home science in general). We indeed have to blame the ignorance and the unrational fear of many people nowadays, due to war on terror, drugs, environmental concern and whatever more.
But... also we can do a lot about it ourselves. If people are doing high-quality expeirmentation, show real scientific interest and not just want 'cool' things, then you see a change of attitude. I have personal experience with that. Even one of the managers of the company where I work (an ICT company, no chemistry involved) has seen my website and became enthusiastic about this and purchased a C3000 chemistry box for himself and his kids. I also have given a 'chemical party' for 10,11 year old kids from the school where our children go, and the kids _and their parents_ really liked it. They all found it a very original activity and really thought it was a good change after all those other kid's parties.

Anyway, TheApplianceOfScience, I hope you'll have a good time over here and also contribute in a positive way to home chemistry.

[Edited on 5-3-08 by woelen]

YT2095 - 5-3-2008 at 09:29

I tend to find that the people that have come to my Lab (after they`ve finished picking their lower jaw off the floor and stopped saying WOW), are quite reasonable and I get no such comments.
although most of them seem to be very scared of Moving an Inch from where I tell them to sit, and they seem to get a little more Polite for some reason?

I find this quite Amusing to be honest, as I`m probably the least intimidating person on the planet and the least likely person on said planet to Harm anyone!

but since I don`t tell the "General" public, I tend to escape most of the stupid comments (Chemistry is only a Part of what I do), so I`m just YT the science guy for the most part.

it helps I guess that I don`t LOOK the part, but rather a like an old Hells Angel Biker (I am an ex-biker with hells angel friends oddly enough).

I`ve helped out a Good many people with my knowledge and chems and other equipment, so I really have to say that foe ME, it has had no Negative impact for our "Hobby" or for me personally.

I Have however overheard conversations about chem in the past and I have introduced myself into the convo without warning and set a few things straight also, so I know it DOES happen!

but in the main, no problems here, and God willing it will stay as such :)

quicksilver - 6-3-2008 at 06:11

The subtlety of negative stereotyping is fantastic. It could be as simple as organic food advertising ("NO Chemicals added") to outright insanity as in the TV show Breaking Bad. but in general the anti-intellectualism of the Western cultures pervades all media. Being intelligent is looked upon as being "different" and therefore an outcast. Doing well in school is looked upon as not "being Black" or not being "cool". It's a serious problem that we embrace a culture of stupidity. Look at what happens to intelligent young girls or women in certain schools. Women are not encouraged to excel in math and science. they are even told that these are "difficult" subjects.

There are a few folks here who are older than 40! Quite a few have adult children. The hobby takes various forms and gets pretty damn deep in some of us. There are more labs such are those above than one would ever imagine! I actually think the average age (of consistent contributers) on THIS board is older than most people think. The students have less time to post!

The_Davster - 6-3-2008 at 17:25

The age thread is also old, forum demographics change over time, and back in the day the average age was a lot younger than it is now from what I have seen. In the past few years there have been many new older frequent contributors.

Not much new to say about the ignorance of the masses that has not already been said. It is just not a politically correct hobby.

Ozone - 6-3-2008 at 21:47

Whoops!

Sorry about that! HBrO3 it is, I farted out of my brainhole :o. My apologies to that hydro-Bromic acid fellow;).

"Students have less time to post"...No doubt, I am in dessertation-mode and I am fortunate if I know what day it is (oxoacids! rats).

Anyway, thanks for the correction with the brainfart (I would fix it, but it has been too long whilst I've had my attention elswhere).

Anyway, welcome again,

O3

benzylchloride1 - 17-3-2008 at 15:29

I am currently writing a paper for my English 1010 class about the decline of amateur science. Several weeks ago, I asked my organic lab professor if they had any empty solvent bottles around because I needed them for my home labs HPLC system. He acted as though I was a criminal until I told him my dad was a retired law enforcement officer and he would never allow me to do anything illegal like making drugs. Also people in my town beleive that you cannot legally own glassware. This is not Texas, but Utah. In Utah you can still buy pure sodium hydroxide and 35% hydrogen peroxide in certain stores. Its unfortunate when people think your up to no good even if you explain to them that you are synthesizing metal complexes or some mundane organic chemical like triphenyl methanol. I can buy certain chemicals from the university, currently I am trying to buy 5 grams of molybdeum metal and they said that they would have to see how "safe it is". I understand that they are concerned about safety, but this is excessive. I once tried to see if I could order some fumaric acid from a health food store in my town. THe sales cleark said that it would be illegal to do any sort of experiments with it. He refused to order it for me. Many of these people that are chemophobes in my town have had organic chemistry and are going to medical school. I am currently the only student in my universities chemistry department that wants to go into chemical research.

ScienceGeek - 17-3-2008 at 15:59

Wow...that's...excessive alright!
It's because of a system like that that people do make explosives at home and blow their face off, and get great news- coverage!
It's basically a loop of amateur chemistry suppresion.

MagicJigPipe - 17-3-2008 at 18:55

I called around to some environmental labs the other day to see if I could obtain their reagent bottles that they THROW AWAY. There were 2 places that at least lied and said they would call when I could have them. A few flat out refused and the majority asked what I wanted them for and when I told them the truth they got rude and said basically, "Hell, no" or they weren't allowed and to stop trying because no one would do that for me. One of them said what I was doing was illegal and another one flat out accused me of making drugs. All this over GLASS BOTTLES.

This may sound crazy but the government has brainwashed these people so much that they think any individual that wants to obtain anything related to chemistry is up to no good.

I called up a SOLVENT SUPPLIER that supplies solvents to all kinds of businesses including research labs. They no longer carry CHLORINATED SOLVENTS OF ANY KIND. What the fuck!!?? How can you be so paranoid (environmentally, health-wise, or legally) that you completely remove the possibility for any buyer to purchase a whole group of compounds!? This is getting absolutely rediculous.

ScienceGeek - 17-3-2008 at 19:13

Save the energy for the all- nighter lab- hours :)

Sorry to say, though, that there's nothing we can do about it than to find loopholes in the system.

The sorry- ass part of the whole thing is that it's actually a bit understandable! Drug manufacture by amateur chemists has increased exponentially over the past years, and so has bomb- making. This is no excuse for treating everyone interested in chemistry as shit, though! And there is NO excuse for this!!

I am fortunate to live in a "small", blip country, but to hear your story about the glassware MagicJigPipe really makes me mad!

My memorable experiences with society's perceptions of home science

Dave Angel - 18-3-2008 at 06:24

First a little electronics:

I asked a well known photo developer for my disposable camera (something I bought and own if I'm not mistaken) back after development (which was paid for) and was lectured on how dangerous it was and told that I can't have it. My protests about my educated nature and experience fell on deaf ears.

Tried this again some years later with a bit more experience and scored two shopping bags of used cameras off a less experienced member of staff. That wasn't enough of course, so I went back for more and got addressed by an angry, suspicious manager. Apparently, if I didn't have the backing of my university I wasn't allowed them. His tone and attitude were that of someone accusing me of a most serious crime, though I suspect he was venting on me his anger with his staff for acting without his permission. Still, it was most uncomfortable.

I tried another, smaller well know chain and got a small bag from them, however as I was about to leave, the guy said (and these were his exact words): "Just don't build a bomb with them". I stopped seeing the funny side of this some time ago when I realised that society readily perceives any scientific mind, particularly the independent kind, as having the capability and inclination to make bombs. Should have told him - "Oh but I will! Mwuhuhahaha". Probably not worth the risk in today's climate though.

Don't worry, I hit the mother load with a more independent developer, using the 'I'm recycling them' technique (well... I am, in a way). He wanted my name and address but only ended up with a first name. I had to pay (cash) for them, but it was well worth it.

Now chemistry fun:

I bought Spirits of Salts (HCl) from a hardware store and was asked what I wanted it for (how many times do we hear this?) by the cashier. "PCB etching" was the reply and she gave up.

"Looks like you're going to have fun" I was told when buying sodium chlorate weedkiller as the cashier examined the product's hazard lables. "Since when has weeding been fun?" I asked.

I have honestly lost count of the number of times I've told any non-chemistry person that my degree is chemistry and got that "blown anything up yet?" question.

To finish, here's a conversation I had with the head of labs (silent throughout, though he was who I came to see) and one of my lecturers who happened to be there:

(something like this)
Me: [knock, knock] "Hi HeadOfLabs, may I be permitted to take some of the empty reagent bottles from the bins out back?"

Lecturer: [cutting in, suspicious] "What do you want them for?"

"Storing reagents."

"What reagents?"

"Chemical reagents..."

"Yes, but what chemical reagents?"

"The ones you generally have in a chemistry lab; solvents, acids, bases, organic building blocks etc." [I held back on a 'duh']

"What do you want those for?" [notice that the issue of the bottles is forgotten - even though I'm not asking him to supply me with the contents]

"Experiments." [admittedly I was being a bit difficult myself here, but I could see I wasn't going to win this one, and the lecturer is well know as an arsehole so I felt he deserved it]

"What experiments?"

"I don't know yet - whatever I fancy at the time. Maybe repeating experiments we do in labs here. I enjoy practical chemistry that much and university lab time just isn't enough for me..."

He gave up on that argument and went down the route of 'it's not safe to go in the bins because of broken glass hazards and chemical residue'. There's a potential for injury and compensation claims apparently.

This last example is the most worrying as it's not just some random member of society; not just someone familiar with chemistry; but one who has studied it, works with it everyday, and is responsible for inspiring interest in the subject in many young minds.

So, getting back to the bottles, I went out back and took them anyway.

It's easier to obtain forgiveness than permission. ;)

[Edited on 18/3/2008 by Dave Angel]

[Edited on 18/3/2008 by Dave Angel]

[Edited on 18/3/2008 by Dave Angel]

woelen - 18-3-2008 at 07:24

The more I read about the USA, the more I feel sorrow for you guys. It is all so retarded. All that forbidding of even the most basic reagents and even electronics and empty glass bottles being suspicious items. This really sucks.

I have other experiences. I actually have quite a few empty reagent bottles with nice thick acid-resistant caps from a local lab. I asked one of the persons from that lab if he can take some of these glass bottles and he came up with more than 10 of them (2.5 liter, 1 liter, 250 ml and a few 100 ml bottles). He did clean them for me with acetone though, so that no residue of the original chemical was in the bottles when I received them. I store my HNO3, H2SO4 and some other more corrosive and volatile liquids in these bottles.

What also is totally alien to me is that people from hardware stores and so on are asking things about what you buy and what you want to do with it. If a hardware store over here sells 30% HCl for wall-brushing or 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaner and you buy it, then no questions are asked. Of course not, because you buy it for brushing walls or cleaning drains, nothing more, nothing less. Asking things NEVER happened to me. Of course, if I buy 10 bottles of such stuff then that may look suspicious. Just 1 or 2 bottles? No questions asked. In this way I also purchase toluene, NaOH, acetone, Ca(OCl)2 and other chlorine-based oxidizers. The only thing I never do is buying all kinds of different chemicals from a hardware store in a single purchase, that could also make people suspicious.

There is one type of places though in NL where you don't buy chemicals anymore, and that's in a pharmacy. If you go there and ask for sodium bicarbonate, then they already look at you as if you are going to kill yourself and your family with a most dangerous substance.

We will have to live with this kind of bullshit. Chemistry, electronics, and most other independent science things are scary in the eyes of many people. Science belongs in a registered lab of a university or big company and not at one's home.

ScienceGeek - 18-3-2008 at 07:39

I don't know what to say!I'm flabbergasted!

I live in Norway, and no one has ever accused or questioned me in my chemical purchase...

benzylchloride1 - 18-3-2008 at 10:05

At least my university does not know that my primary interest is in aromatic compounds. They would go bizzirk if they knew that I synthesized some nitrobenzene and isolated from the steam distillate some evil m-dinitrobenzene! Of course I have a fume hood, but that makes it even more suspicious in the eyes of the uninformed. They ask what good could come out of a kid with a gas chromatograph, phase contrast microscope, HPLC system , UV-vis spectrophotometer and a work in progress; a Perkin- Elmer 467 Infrared spectrophotometer. When you say that in this town, they think you are a anarchest. The craft store in town stopped selling Lorann almond oil A.K.A. pure benzaldehyde. I had to order it from California. Strange because California is one of the worst places to obtain chemicals.

Dave Angel - 18-3-2008 at 10:14

Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
The more I read about the USA, the more I feel sorrow for you guys. It is all so retarded. All that forbidding of even the most basic reagents and even electronics and empty glass bottles being suspicious items. This really sucks.

I have other experiences. I actually have quite a few empty reagent bottles with nice thick acid-resistant caps from a local lab. I asked one of the persons from that lab if he can take some of these glass bottles and he came up with more than 10 of them (2.5 liter, 1 liter, 250 ml and a few 100 ml bottles). He did clean them for me with acetone though, so that no residue of the original chemical was in the bottles when I received them. I store my HNO3, H2SO4 and some other more corrosive and volatile liquids in these bottles.

What also is totally alien to me is that people from hardware stores and so on are asking things about what you buy and what you want to do with it. If a hardware store over here sells 30% HCl for wall-brushing or 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaner and you buy it, then no questions are asked. Of course not, because you buy it for brushing walls or cleaning drains, nothing more, nothing less. Asking things NEVER happened to me. Of course, if I buy 10 bottles of such stuff then that may look suspicious. Just 1 or 2 bottles? No questions asked. In this way I also purchase toluene, NaOH, acetone, Ca(OCl)2 and other chlorine-based oxidizers. The only thing I never do is buying all kinds of different chemicals from a hardware store in a single purchase, that could also make people suspicious.


I'm in the UK, and it is that bad. I'm glad some parts of the world are a little more tolerant. Lucky you being able to buy toluene off the shelf by the way. I might be missing it somewhere in the UK stores, but I've never found it over here.

I never buy combinations or large amounts; you're right, it's not a good idea. Things have got easier for me to deal with as I've got older and more used to handling or pre-empting the questions.
Quote:
There is one type of places though in NL where you don't buy chemicals anymore, and that's in a pharmacy. If you go there and ask for sodium bicarbonate, then they already look at you as if you are going to kill yourself and your family with a most dangerous substance.


True over here too; I was once able to aquire copper sulphate and alum from a big chain pharmacy for crystal growing many years ago when I was younger but they looked confused when I asked again a few years ago. I imagine asking them today would be a bad idea in "post 7/7" UK. In fact, I dare not order hydrogen peroxide anywhere given its media attention and the public's "vigilance" about it. Even the university has to jump through hoops for it from what I hear.
Quote:
We will have to live with this kind of bullshit. Chemistry, electronics, and most other independent science things are scary in the eyes of many people. Science belongs in a registered lab of a university or big company and not at one's home.


It's a shame that seems to be the way people view it - even those within university or industry; I might say especially those people. Still we do live with it and members here have achieved quite wonderful things in spite of restrictions and public opinion. And I have to admit, it can be a bit of fun in itself to find those loopholes ScienceGeek mentioned, and getting the reagents and apparatus you want with a bit of planning, quick thinking and charm.

[Edited on 18/3/2008 by Dave Angel]

Polverone - 18-3-2008 at 11:25

I have had highly variable experiences. For example, around here the stores want a copy of your driver's license when buying toluene. But I haven't been harassed when buying materials. In 2003 I purchased an 80 pound sack of ammonium nitrate from a fertilizer dealer, with cash, and no identification presented. I guess I look trustworthy! I said up front that I was interested in any non-blended fertilizers they had, because I wanted materials for chemistry and chemical suppliers charge more for a bottle than they do for a sack. I ended up with enough ammonium nitrate and urea to last for an extremely long time. They even offered to order other nitrates for me, but I don't do a lot of pyro work so the NH4NO3 can supply all the nitrates I need in conjunction with metal carbonates and hydroxides.

The same year I was able to get a bunch of free barium, strontium, and lithium carbonates (pottery grade) from my university's ceramics department. I said up front that I was interested in materials for chemistry, and they actually encouraged me to take all the barium and lithium compounds I wanted (they wanted to get rid of them due to toxicity concerns). I paid a bit to additionally obtain oxides of iron, chromium, copper, and cobalt.

On the other hand, I had a chemistry instructor who was horrified when I explained that I had previously done one of the activities we were doing in lab that day (action of chlorine on iodide salt solution to liberate iodine) on my own. I also once had an electric meter reader report me to the police because I was outside heating materials in a crucible over a gas burner. Having the police question you about what you're doing, even if you're doing nothing wrong, is very nerve-wracking.

Most of the obstacles I see, apart from space and funding issues, are about regulatory policies rather than suspicious clerks or neighbors. If I could purchase phosphorus, it would be easy for my neighbors to see that I am not going on a meth binge or attracting drug users or buyers to the neighborhood. But I can't purchase phosphorus in the first place, so law abiding behavior and good relations with my neighbors don't do anything to ease restrictions that are ostensibly aimed at illegal activities.

joeflsts - 18-3-2008 at 11:45

Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
The more I read about the USA, the more I feel sorrow for you guys. It is all so retarded. All that forbidding of even the most basic reagents and even electronics and empty glass bottles being suspicious items. This really sucks.

I have other experiences. I actually have quite a few empty reagent bottles with nice thick acid-resistant caps from a local lab. I asked one of the persons from that lab if he can take some of these glass bottles and he came up with more than 10 of them (2.5 liter, 1 liter, 250 ml and a few 100 ml bottles). He did clean them for me with acetone though, so that no residue of the original chemical was in the bottles when I received them. I store my HNO3, H2SO4 and some other more corrosive and volatile liquids in these bottles.

What also is totally alien to me is that people from hardware stores and so on are asking things about what you buy and what you want to do with it. If a hardware store over here sells 30% HCl for wall-brushing or 97% H2SO4 as drain cleaner and you buy it, then no questions are asked. Of course not, because you buy it for brushing walls or cleaning drains, nothing more, nothing less. Asking things NEVER happened to me. Of course, if I buy 10 bottles of such stuff then that may look suspicious. Just 1 or 2 bottles? No questions asked. In this way I also purchase toluene, NaOH, acetone, Ca(OCl)2 and other chlorine-based oxidizers. The only thing I never do is buying all kinds of different chemicals from a hardware store in a single purchase, that could also make people suspicious.

There is one type of places though in NL where you don't buy chemicals anymore, and that's in a pharmacy. If you go there and ask for sodium bicarbonate, then they already look at you as if you are going to kill yourself and your family with a most dangerous substance.

We will have to live with this kind of bullshit. Chemistry, electronics, and most other independent science things are scary in the eyes of many people. Science belongs in a registered lab of a university or big company and not at one's home.


I have been involved in amatuer chemistry in one degree or another since the 1970's. Yes some chemicals are hard to obtain (list 1, chemical weapon precursors) but to be honest it isn't that hard to enjoy this hobby in the USA.

Much of what you see on this forum is paranoia. In fact I see a lot of knee jerk reactions on this forum.

Joe

Magpie - 18-3-2008 at 13:58

joeflsts says:
Quote:

I have been involved in amatuer chemistry in one degree or another since the 1970's. Yes some chemicals are hard to obtain (list 1, chemical weapon precursors) but to be honest it isn't that hard to enjoy this hobby in the USA.


I agree that most chemicals can be bought, made, or extracted in the US. All it takes is a lot of creativity, work, and searching, since the major supply houses will not sell to individuals. Also if you attempt to get some glassblowing done this may also be denied (as happened to me).

Quote:

Much of what you see on this forum is paranoia. In fact I see a lot of knee jerk reactions on this forum.


Would you stand in front of your window holding a 3 neck flask so that you could get some sunlight to inspect it, with the meter reader or a neighbor looking on? I don't think it is paranoia to say you would not - it is just good judgement. To deny that (for doing this) you could be unjustly accused, arrested, and taken to court for having a home lab is not facing reality in the US.

microcosmicus - 18-3-2008 at 14:03

Quote:

Science belongs in a registered lab of a university or big company and not at one's home.


Of course, the sad fact is that one is also finding less science in those places as well
due to the same social and political trends. Funding for science is dropping, companies
no longer do as much research as they used to, colleges are downsizing, merging, or
closing science departments and dumbing down science classes. While they do have
access to chemicals which are off-limits to individuals, institutional scientists instead
are burdened with mind-numbing bureaucratic regulation. To illustrate this, allow me
to relate an anecdote from a few years back when I was teaching physics at a
university. During a faculty meeting, the chairman announced the new policies
regarding chemicals which would require all sorts of paperwork to be filled out.
I, along with the rest of the faculty was stunned and wondered how the chemistry
department would possibly operate if they had to spend as much time filling out these
silly forms as actually doing chemistry.

vulture - 18-3-2008 at 14:11

I still find it hard to believe that in the US it's OK to own a fully functioning assault rifle, but that you can get investigated or even incarcerated for owning a three-necked flask.

IIRC, assault rifles were made to kill and three-necked flasks to synthesize compounds, but I might be wrong.

[Edited on 18-3-2008 by vulture]

ScienceGeek - 18-3-2008 at 15:36

In the words of Leo Tolstoy:

“Hypocrisy in anything whatever may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it, and is revolted by it, however ingeniously it may be disguised”

Magpie - 18-3-2008 at 15:56

Quote:

I still find it hard to believe that in the US it's OK to own a fully functioning assault rifle, but that you can get investigated or even incarcerated for owning a three-necked flask.


Yes this is stupid and hypocritical. But the US does not have exclusive domain of that.

What I was trying to say is that it is stupid of the home chemist to not be careful in disclosing his chemistry hobby to the public. This is not paranoia - it is reality. If you need examples of how much trouble you can innocently get into just search this forum for a while.

[Edited on 18-3-2008 by Magpie]

MagicJigPipe - 18-3-2008 at 16:36

"I still find it hard to believe that in the US it's OK to own a fully functioning assault rifle"

Technically, one must give the ATF one's fingerprints and photo, fill out a bunch of paperwork, wait 6 months and jump through many hoops to get a real full-auto (or 3 shot burst, select fire) assault rifle. Also, you can only buy it from someone that already has it and it must have been registered before 1986. The media has brainwashed you into thinking that any weapon that looks scary (or is the evil color black or, god forbid, has a curved magazine!) like an AK-47/74, M16, Galil, MAC 10 etc... is an "assault rifle". An assault rifle is a SELECT FIRE, intermediate range long gun designed for military and/or security purposes.

Also technically, it is not hypocritical as the right to own such weapons is specifically garunteed by the Bill of Rights. Glassware is not.

But let's not turn this into a discussion on guns because we all know that for a society to call itself free it's people must be armed with the firearms available at the time for without them, they can TAKE our glassware and other freedoms by force.

benzylchloride1 - 19-3-2008 at 12:02

I managed to take a look around my universities' stock room several times. It was increadible what they had: red phosphorus, thionyl chloride, red fuming nitric acid, organics of all kinds. None of these chemicals are even used though. The most dangerous chemical I have ever worked with at the university has been sulfuric acid. This is a far cry from what we worked with at the high school. I took general chemistry at the local high school and we routinely worked with mercury compounds. The university is extremely parionoid about any chemical. Since it is spring break, I had to do a classic synthesis of organic chemistry. I synthesized bromobenzene from benzene and bromine that I prepared myself from NaBr. It is sad that we do not do these labs at the college. Most of the organic chemistry labs we do are simpley mixing two chemicals in a flask, precipitating a product. The university is so parionoid about safety that we cannot even work with benzene. I love aromatic compounds of all sorts.

Safety; the new religion of communism!

Magpie - 19-3-2008 at 14:28

Yes that was the mantra of my employers also : "Safety, safety, safety!" It's all about their bottom line, of course. Nothing to do with humanitarianism, contrary to their claims: "We want you to go home to your family in one piece, blah, blah, blah."

My refresher college lab experience wasn't as bad as yours benzylchloride1, thankfully. They had eliminated the oxymercuration of an alkene as it produced a drop of mercury as byproduct. This I can understand on an economic basis as they probably had to pay outrageous fees for Hg disposal.

But we did get to use Na for qualitative analysis, chlorosulfonic acid, hydrazine, and (gasp) even thionyl chloride. No red P or PCl3, however. I haven't seen PCl3 since my undergraduate days 45 years ago.

We did mostly meaningful organic syntheses, including Diels-Alder, carbenes, ect. Rarely did we do just extractions from natural products. I think that I was lucky to have an old school professor of at least 40 years experience. He was probably not easily buffaloed by sqeamish administrators.

[Edited on 19-3-2008 by Magpie]

The_Davster - 19-3-2008 at 18:25

For me in introductory courses I used such 'dangerous' things as: Br2, Benzene, conc. sulfuric&nitric, As2O3:o(this is being removed currently I believe), a litre of Hg at once, in apparatus for measuring some gas constants, SOCl2, acetyl chloride, sodium, dinitrophenylhydrazine, semicarbazide. And likely a few others I am forgetting.

I had the opportunity to extract trimyristin, an ester from nutmeg cloves. That was the only extraction done in university organic lab.

Also, the uni lab I do research in, had to report certain lab stock recently to the feds. Chemical weapon precursors exclusively, including thionyl chloride, PCl3 and other usefull reagents.

bob000555 - 26-3-2008 at 21:18

My assorted ranting thoughts on the mater:
I think most of the “prejudice” against our hobby is people who fear what they do not know…which is a lot. There’s also the fact that they’ve been brainwashed into believing that “chemicals” are bad not realizing that literally EVERYTHING they touch eat and breath is a chemical. I submit evidence the town that almost banned “dihydrogen monoxide” aka H2O because the where told it’s a chemical in their water supply that “its present in every tumor, in every school shooting , it kills you if you inhale it, and it eats through metal(rust).”

I wonder what would happen if you informed the DEA that dihydrogen monoxide can be used in drug manufacture…probably the same as when they learned a that a Erlenmeyer flask can be used in drug synthesis. It’s quit obvious to me that we have left important scientific decisions to bureaucrats who couldn’t tell a meth lab from a nuclear chemistry lab, or a necessary trace nutrient from a toxin! Another thing that pisses me off is when politicians wine about our nations slipping scientific superiority in one breath and in the next talk about banning all chemicals that could interest children in science, or making it nearly imposable to get simple fu**ing glassware!!!!!! I’ll list some of their stupidest decisions here feel free to add on.
-Banning glassware not realizing that tuberware or a disposable cup will do just as good in most cases
-Banning any chemical that could possibly be abused, I realize potassium permanganate can be used for explosive but its also one of the most useful chemicals I can think of.
-Not realizing that the price of a generation with no knowledge of chemistry is far greater then reward forcing the local meth lab to go with out a three necked flask.
-putting people with absolutely no scientific knowledge in charge of deciding what people with scientific knowledge can touch.
-Thinking that preventing people from buying chems prevents them from just MAKING them. If you can find some one who’s to stupid to think of at least ten ways to make chlorine with common chemicals then is seriously think that person is capable of harming anyone but themselves with a cylinder of yellow gas !!!
-One a slightly less chemistry topic, putting a guy who thinks there is actually controversy in the scientific community about global warming in charge of the EPA, and just as bad a person who thinks theirs controversy about evolution in charge of the science curriculum!!!!

Well my original post about our hobby degenerated in to raving rant about governmental douchebaggery oh well…

MagicJigPipe - 27-3-2008 at 16:50

"governmental douchebaggery"

HAHAHA!

IMO, tupperware cannot be used in place of glassware most of the time. Sometimes, maybe.

Keep on with the truth my friend.

microcosmicus - 27-3-2008 at 17:16

But glass, of course, can be used as glass. Whether you choose
to call a particular item beaker vs. measuring cup or. flask
vs. bottle primarily depends on whether it happens to be located
in the kitchen or the lab.

As Sean Carlson once quipped, every Texas legislator and
policeman who has a coffeemaker on the desk is in violation
of the law they made --- an unregistered flask, filter, and heating
pad being used to perform solvent extraction of a stimulant.

[Edited on 27-3-2008 by microcosmicus]

CyrusGrey - 27-3-2008 at 19:14

Quote:

But glass, of course, can be used as glass. Whether you choose to call a particular item beaker vs. measuring cup or. flask vs. bottle primarily depends on whether it happens to be located in the kitchen or the lab.


I disagree! The obvious solution is to ban all forms of glass. Now everyone must use styrofoam cups instead! This will clearly cut down on the plotting of drug lords and terrorists.

Next week lets talk about the nefarious uses of metal cookware...

On a more serious note: I seem to be very lucky to live in an area where people don't seem to mind chemistry much. Usually people say a few things about drugs and bombs in jest (Though I don't like those jokes one bit) and then start to ask me about if I have hurt myself (Or if I am buying something, start lecturing me about such and such being dangerous).

vulture - 28-3-2008 at 14:25

Quote:

But let's not turn this into a discussion on guns because we all know that for a society to call itself free it's people must be armed with the firearms available at the time for without them, they can TAKE our glassware and other freedoms by force.


Now this is what I call delusional. So you're going to use a firearm to stop the US government from outlawing glassware? Or revert any other action they've taken to limit your rights? This is an argument that's been popping up for over more than 20 years, yet I can't remember the US having any armed revolution in that timespan. I can however remember severe restrictions being imposed on your civil rights in that timespan.

Sure you can own guns. Trouble is that using them against the government would get you charged with conspiracy and terrorism. What? You think you're going to walk because you're using the argument from the bill of rights?

I also would like to point out that I haven't been brainwashed into thinking every firearm is an assault rifle. I'm well aware that the trigger mechanism/layout says more about the function and purpose than the shape of the magazine.

Anyway, all the above is not what I was trying to point out. Why would someone go through the trouble of synthesizing explosive compounds when they can buy a gun to commit an act of terrorism?

Allow me to clarify with a very silly example:

Means, motive, opportunity.

Say someone is in my house and I get into a bad fight with them. So I have the motive to kill that person. Now I can either:

A) Grab my gun if I have one, which provides me with the means. This can be done quickly, so opportunity is also OK. BANG, person dead.

B) Go into my lab and start synthesizing some explosive. I will have the means, but by the time I get back the other person will be gone, so bye bye opportunity. It's also very likely that I'll calm down and rethink it while producing my explosive.

[Edited on 28-3-2008 by vulture]

MagicJigPipe - 28-3-2008 at 17:16

Heh... No. I was only using the glassware thing as an example. The people don't even have to use the guns. Yes, the US is getting bad but they can only do so much before everyone gets pissed (IMO if we weren't semi-armed, it would be MUCH worse). An armed populace can be an effective deterrent against a government taking things too far. No one can argue that having to use them is a good thing but if the people HAVE to then at least they have that option.

Submission to oppression is never the way to go.

The argument you used has ALSO been used millions of times by the anti-gun crowd. In practice, it just doesn't make sense. Are you telling me you would shoot someone if you had a gun? The kind of people that are going to get hot headed and kill someone are going to do so whether they have a gun or not.

Regardless of how quickly chemistry can be used to kill someone your argument AGAINST gun ownership is contradictary to your pro-chemistry lifestyle. You think people shouldn't be able to own something they can kill somebody with? Hand over your chemicals. Certain kinds of firearms should be banned? Hand over your "more dangerous" chemicals, then. You can't deny some people from having "dangerous" things and then say it's OKAY for you to have them. That's what the US government does!

Please, let us not get this thread locked.

bob000555 - 28-3-2008 at 18:39

The seconded amendment is perhaps the most misunderstand amendment it allows you to own guns, and the founders original intent was so they cold be used to prevent the government from truing tyrannical . The seconded amendment however should your little rebellion fail.

Any way back to the topic I think the destruction of chemistry is the latest wave in the anti-intellectual movement.

vulture - 29-3-2008 at 04:28

Quote:

The argument you used has ALSO been used millions of times by the anti-gun crowd. In practice, it just doesn't make sense. Are you telling me you would shoot someone if you had a gun? The kind of people that are going to get hot headed and kill someone are going to do so whether they have a gun or not.


No, you misunderstood me. I'm not against the ownership of firearms. Like cars, there are people that can handle them responsibly and there are people that can't. My problem is with the very selective judgment. You have to admit that the chance of people getting hurt when they get into a fight is higher when they're armed. Regardless if they're armed with knives, guns or a spray bottle of NaOH. So why are the guns and the knives allowed, but not the bottle of NaOH?

It's the same question as why people are allowed to pour 50L or more of petrol into their car, which contains atleast a liter of benzene. But if you use the same benzene in the lab with proper protection equipment, you have to file a report and dispose of it seperately.

Same goes for HCN & CO. Safety supervisors will freak out when you request to handle it, but millions of people inhale noxious quantities of those voluntarily every day.
Quote:

The seconded amendment is perhaps the most misunderstand amendment it allows you to own guns, and the founders original intent was so they cold be used to prevent the government from truing tyrannical .


Does secretive detainment of people without access to legal representation and deportation to concentration camps sound tyrannical to you? If so, please consult your legislative literature. Next to your bill of rights is a piece of paper called the patriot act. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[Edited on 29-3-2008 by vulture]

MagicJigPipe - 29-3-2008 at 12:07

I'm sorry, I misunderstood, vulture.

"Does secretive detainment of people without access to legal representation and deportation to concentration camps sound tyrannical to you? If so, please consult your legislative literature. Next to your bill of rights is a piece of paper called the patriot act. Wake up and smell the coffee."

Like I said, this bis bad but it's gonna have to take something that DIRECTLY and negatively affects the "sheeple's" daily lives. Hopefully then they will wake up. Besides, it's not the "sheep" the govt. has to worry about anyhow.

Also, for example, England is much worse IMO and virtually all firearms are outlawed there.

Anyway, I/We could go on and on but let's get back on topic, shall we?

microcosmicus - 29-3-2008 at 19:35

Ultimately, the Bill of Rights is just and old piece of paper in
a museum. What really matters is whether there are people
sticking up for their rights, as is clearly illustrated by this
example of guns versus chemicals.

In the case of guns, there is a powerful, well-organized lobby
headed up by groups such as the NRA. These people are
quite active in promoting their cause, lobbying politicians, and
making legal challenges with the result that the right to arms
has been respected. Politicians think twice before tinkering
with the second amendment because they know that the
NRA could make their life miserable and mess up their
chances of being re-elected.

Similarly, there are powerful automotive lobbies and
pharmaceutical lobbies looking out for their interests, but
there is no interest group sticking up for home chemists.
Given these facts and the general principle that politicians
will take the course of action which makes for the most
government jobs with the least resistance, one can pretty
much understand the lopsided state of affairs in much the
same way that one can, say, predict solar eclipses and
chemical bonding from variational principles..

Politicians love the war on drugs and the war on terror
because such things can be used the justify the role of a
big government (and hence their importance as the people
running this government which plays a crucial role in
protecting the public from all sorts of nasty bogeymen),
warrant the existence of such agencies as the DEA and the
DHS, and can serve to draw attention away from embarrassments
such as a slow economy. To keep this going, they need to at least
look tough on drugs and terror by passing suitable laws. So
what to ban? Going after OTC ephedrine could put a dent
in the sales of pharmaceutical companies whilst items like
phosphorous and toluene which could be banned without having
to worry about stepping on any lobbyist's toes. By contrast, a
favor like carving out an exception for Vicks inhalers to contain a
stereoisomer of methamphetamine (charmingly enough giving
Proctor and Gamble a monopoly) can translate into a donation
to the campaign fund. Likewise, why ruffle the feathers of the gun lobby
by suggesting tighter controls on weapons or alienate the automotive
lobby and oil industry by pointing out the uses suicide bombers could
make of cars and their fuel when one can some across as equally
tough on terrorists by campaigning against chlorine.? The guns and
the knives are allowed but the bottle of NaOH is not because there are
no special interests group championing the right of ordinary citizens
to own chemicals.

As for this Patriot Act, this is the latest variation on the Sedition Acts of
the 1798. Every so often, some event will shock Americans (Whiskey
Rebellion, Haymarket riot, 9/11) leading to a scare ("anarchist scare",
"red scare", "yellow scare", "meth scare") during which the courts will
turn a blind eye towards rights and due process in the name of protecting
national security.

So, turning back to the main topic, it looks like home chemists in the
U.S. (and other countries) will keep getting the short end of the stick and
having their rights trampled unless they can figure out a way of uniting
and making their influence felt. Since amateur scientists are a numerically
small group not especially endowed with political influence, this would
require forming alliances with other groups, of which I can immediately
think of three candidates:

* Professionals Unfortunately, all too many professionals view
amateurs as crackpots and are suspicious of any lab which is not
located in an institution such as a school or company. As I know from
our efforts at PlanetMath in getting professional societies to take us
seriously, it is not at all easy to confront such prejudices but, with
perseverance, one can make headway.

* Homeschoolers Parents trying to teach their children at home
face the same problem of obtaining chemicals and setting up home labs.
Given that the homeschooling movement is already well established and
has influence, we would do well to collaborate with them.

* DIY/Hacker There is a loose community of kindred spirits who like to
fiddle around with technology more of whom would likely up take chemistry
if they knew about it and look favorably on what we do. For instance,
consider the favorable article which Wired ran about the plight of home
chemists including an interview with Polverone. It would be nice if, say,
Make and Instructables would regularly have more material introducing
DIY types to home chemistry like the magazines of yesteryear.

* Intellectual Following what Bob said above, if there are any groups
out there opposing the wave of anti-intellectualism, we should make sure
that they talk about our plight as part of this wave.

Alright, time to get back to setting up HCS.

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by microcosmicus]

CyrusGrey - 29-3-2008 at 20:49

Argh! Microcosmicus, you spell out the situation very well. I now feel like going out and giving the first anti-chemistry person I come across a good few smacks in the face! Why can't we have lobbyists!?

I think the shot that weakened us the most was rising concerns over liability. The modern world is becoming more and more concerned over protecting people from anything and everything. Here in the US it is especially bad: Here people sue for things like serving hot coffee (Damages from emotional harm from having hot coffee spilled on the lap). This concern... no: moral panic, over liability has made things like chemistry sets dissapear completely which has opened the door to things like the war on drugs/war on terror tightening the noose. Just think, if chemistry sets were sold today the text required to list all of the warnings would be far larger than the text of listed chemistry experiments!

I feel like there should be something more I could do... I have heard that sending a letter to my representative might help in certain things, but I don't really know if this will help if we have no lobbying power. Does anyone have any insights into this process?

I guess I can just work on helping the HCS for now...

[Edited on 30-3-2008 by CyrusGrey]

Splinky - 30-3-2008 at 14:20

People, most irritatingly family members, often make quips about me blowing things up. I just seethe in silence, but eventually I'm going to snap.

The worst thing of all is some of the idiots I deal with at school. One kid who particularly irritates me is this antisocial dumbass who managed to get into honors english, giving him an opportunity to beg me for the "recipe for gunpowder" as he calls it.
I think that one of the routes to getting rid of the stereotypes of amateur scientists is to get kids better educated at school about science in general. Kids don't realize how much all branches of science affect their lives. One idiotic football player in response to my asking how he thinks that sports matter said "why do you think science matters, theres no point to it". I am disappointed in how stupid youth are in general.

Pretty soon, I will be going to a scientific supply store in my town to get some glass ware with my dad. I can't wait to see the expression on whoever helps us when a high schooler asks for a list of lab supplies.

MagicJigPipe - 31-3-2008 at 14:12

I think being prejudice against "jocks" is just as bad as being the same way towards "intellectuals" and scientists.

Sports have their place and IMO they are somewhat beneficial to society. They promote health for one thing. A little competition is sometimes helpful as well. I played sports quite often and I used to be one of the "health nut" go every day to the gym types. Does that mean I'm not worthy? I don't think so. I think having interest in health and sports along with knowledge and science is a good thing and should be encouraged. I mean, who doesn't want to be healthy and physically active (no, I didn't mean sex, but it is healthy, sort of)?

[Edited on 31-3-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

CyrusGrey - 31-3-2008 at 16:00

Quote:

Sports have their place and IMO they are somewhat beneficial to society. They promote health for one thing.


I disagree. Some sports maybe promote health. At least the sports that are watched by large numbers of people seem fraught with injury and early retirement. I would think football for example would be as dangerous to someone who doesn't know how take a fall or tackle as chemistry would be to somone who doesn't know basic lab safety. Isn't the arthritis alone very high in people that played sports alot in their early years?

Not that I usually like perpetuating steriotypes but in this case... When I used to work at a pool supply store I met two of the most anti-intellectual people I had ever come across. They were going to college only for the football. They flat out refused when their boss told them to wear safety goggles when they were running a pump that filled jugs with 10% hypochlorite solution! Their reason: "We don't want to look like scientists." I don't think they were anti-intellectual because they were football players though, rather I think maybe they were football players because they were anti-intillectual.

Now, I wouldn't think any less of somone just because they were a football player, but it seems to me that the steriotype has at least some basis.

[Edited on 31-3-2008 by CyrusGrey]

microcosmicus - 31-3-2008 at 16:05

Quote:

They flat out refused when their boss told them to wear safety goggles when they were running a pump that filled jugs with 10% hypochlorite solution! Their reason: "We don't want to look like scientists.


I wonder what they said when their coach told them to wear helmets and shoulder pads.

MagicJigPipe - 31-3-2008 at 18:26

It's true that some sports cause injury. But some the risk outweighs the potential life long health benifits. Track (yeah, it's supposedly bad for the knees but c'mon, they're telling me I can't run now?), basketball and tennis, just to name a few.

I know there are jocks that are dumb and unintellectual. I was just saying that prejudging someone just because they are physically active is wrong. IMO, health is just as important in life as knowledge because without health you can't have knowledge.

benzylchloride1 - 31-3-2008 at 19:31

I went to pay for my molybdeum metal and they said that it was not a good idea to sell it to me! One redeaming thing; my dad bought me a liter of Benzene today! It is ridiculous what these bean counters think. The university was perfectly willing to sell me the molybdeum, but the department head shot it down. At least there is Ebay still. A Ebay store; Chemsavers, sells lots of good organics. I just synthesized some 3,5- dinitrobenzoic acid yesterday.:mad:

Splinky - 2-4-2008 at 14:10

Don't get me wrong, I think that sports have a place and can be quite fun. The person I was talking to however thought that basketball and football were the only things that mattered on earth. I'm pretty active, I run and ride my bike very often. I agree that it is important to break both a mental and physical sweat.

bob000555 - 2-4-2008 at 18:48

Sorry my last post about gun control got mess up it should read “but he second amendment provides no protection should your miny-rebellion fail “

Anyway on the subject of comparing anti=athleticism to anti-intellectualism….THAT IS SIMPLY PREPOSTEROUS. Anti-intellectualism has on more then one occasion lead to atrocities against the human race! From Nazi book burnings to the people of Oxford turning on the university staff to claiming that intellectuals exist to scam the “salt of the earth” (all to often defined as a football playing Notre Dame student). IF you are under the delusion that any prejudice against athletes exists look at athletic “scholarships” (a butchery of the root word “scholar”), or even collages offering favorable admissions to athletes, then try to find a single athletic organization that allows people in on the basis of intellectual standing. Athletes are allowed to infiltrate places of academia, often wreaking havoc on the institution( instructors feel pressure to give athletes passing grades to keep them playing throwing off the bell curve for real students) while athletic institutions reciprocate no welcome. I would love to see a philosopher in the NFL…
A quick look at my school will thrash any delusions of anti-athleticism from your head. Upon entering my school one is assaulted by a rather large trophy case, if one wishes to see the academic awards they must scour the school in search of them. Walking from the lobby to the main class room one is agene assaulted by pictures of athletes from years past and present staring down at the, smug expressions on their faces(pictures of nonathletes are no ware to be found). When issues come up you would think the purpose of the school is to play sports, when people proposed starting and ending school one hour later then the current time to help student perform better in first period class the proposal was imidetly shot down because is would interfere in sports schedules! Finally while our books are falling apart, while some teachers are paying for equipment out of there own pockets our school sees fit to spend more then $1.5 million on a new stadium. The student body currently has no plans to do anything about it.

MagicJigPipe - 2-4-2008 at 20:28

Your school pays for your books? That's fantastic.

CyrusGrey - 2-4-2008 at 20:50

My school bookstore makes you pay through the nose for books, so I usually get them on amazon.

I was never trying to suggest that you shouldn't play sports... just that you shouldn't play the way the professional players play (It really seems to chew them up from what I hear). I prefer various martial arts for exercise. Even if your in great shape and then go and do something like jujitsu you end up very sore after even one night due to using the muscles you don't use doing other things.

As far as competative sports go, the college I am trying to transfer to doesn't play teams outside of the school. Its a very intellectual school, one guy I talked to there was doing an undergraduate thesis about enhancing prosthetic eyes! :o I hope I get in...

I guess all we can do is try and find a niche that has a good number of intellectuals and work from there at improving our society. Sciencemadness is one great place to do this from!

MagicJigPipe - 3-4-2008 at 01:26

I never bought books through the school bookstore. Even the "used" ones were way overpriced. I went to a store (I'm sure every college has one nearby) called Textbook Brokers and got most of my books for a fraction of the bookstore price.

At one point they actually had SOME used lab equipment but the last time I went (several years ago) they didn't have it anymore. Most certainly due to the.... well, you know.

MagicJigPipe - 8-4-2008 at 22:35

Inspired by garage chemist's adventures with procuring CS2 from a pharmacy in the old "Carbon Disulfide Preparation" thread, I have decided to do a "test".

I shall call all of the local pharmacies in my area to see if they will order a chemical for me. The chemical must not be able to be used in drug or explosive syntheses and must not be any more toxic than something you can buy OTC. That is so if the pharmicist tries to say no or that it is "too toxic" or "that's too dangerous" it will be obvious that it's bullshit and he/she is just chemophobic or ignorant.

This might accomplish 2 things. It might help me get a chemical that I need and it will give more insight into the current social views of "home chemistry" even when the chemical in question is just as or less toxic than something that can be purchased by anyone in a grocery store.

Also, I will say that I am a "hobby chemist".

Which chemical should I try?

Phthalic anhydride?
Phenol?
DMF?
DMSO?

Or should I just do a test for Reagent Grade NaCl? THAT would be interesting. You know, to see how many actually don't know what "sodium chloride" is. I can see it now:

"I was wondering if you could order 500g of ACS Reagent Grade sodium chloride for me from a chemical supplier"

Pharmacist "What do you need that for" or "No, I won't do that" or "We don't sell CHEMICALS to the public".

I would seriously not be surprised if some of the pharmacists thought I was trying to make meth because of all the "meth ingredients" lists that the local police put out that include rock salt or "table salt".

EDIT
Speaking of which! I got one of those replies from a pharmacist when I tried to buy sodium benzoate from him. He said, "what are you going to use it for?" To his credit he did end up selling it to me.


[Edited on 4-9-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

woelen - 8-4-2008 at 22:46

Phthalic anhydride is a safe option. Phenol is quite toxic at high concentrations. I do not know DMF, but DMSO seems to be used in some drugs making processes.

Other fairly innocuous chemicals, with no relation to drugs (a.f.a.i.k.) are
- resorcinol (25 grams, this is a somewhat more expensive, but rather interesting chem)
- sodium sulfite (or bisulfite)
- potassium iodate (this is quite expensive, but otherwise fairly innocuous, mildly oxidizing, not suitable for explosives and pyrotechnic devices)
- hydroquinone (used as a photo developer, I see no use in illegal activities like drugs-making or explosives)

Aurus - 27-3-2009 at 12:14

In my country, the perception of chemicals is influenced by the fact that the police is cracking down on makers of small explosives which are used in the easter celebrations. They have withdrawn sulfur from the pharmacies and just about the only chemicals that can be found there are hydrogen peroxide and magnesium sulfate.
It is interesting how even my biology teacher asked me "are you going to blow up something?" when i just told her i was organising a chemistry club at my school.

JohnWW - 27-3-2009 at 12:50

Sulfur should be available, as a technical grade, from farm and/or garden supplies stores. Veterinarians may also have it. How about asking pharmacies for CS2 (for use as a solvent), or CCl4 or CHCl3 or CH2Cl2 (also for use as a solvent)?

User - 28-3-2009 at 00:32

That seems familiar to me.
slowly but steadily the western civilization is turning in a good old "control state".
My hunt for chemicals is always going on, i turn around almost every bottle i come across.
But I can't help but noticing that more and more chemicals are disappearing.

For example we had some dumb fuck minister who tried banning AN from our country (the poor fellow obviously did not know that it was the world's most used fertilizer. )
The reason for that is that he seemed to have heard that it can be uses in so called "bomb making" ( again not realizing that we all eat from the usage of it ).
At the moment you actually need ID to buy some, although nobody really is doing that
Another thing he did not seem to be aware of is that even with one trip around the city I could gather enough particular chemicals to make explosives, as in i would not even need the damn ammonium nitrate.
This stuff can make me pretty sad, seeing where once such a open minded country can Americanize within a few years.

Some times my hopes run out and i get out of my cozy old home to go to a pharmacy to gently ask for a substance ( that would be only if i exhausted every other possible source ) Many times i noticed a strange suspicion even thou I am a nice looking guy, they look at me as if I am asking them to commit mass suicide.
And maybe just because those people are being scared by mass media, they are no longer supposed to think for themselves.

On a chemistry forum on which i have been active for years i once joked " why not ban just all chemicals"
Let's go back to rocks and stones and drag every nice looking lady in ur cave, which might not be so bad after all.

I rest my case.
What do I know.



[Edited on 28-3-2009 by User]

IrC - 29-3-2009 at 01:12

"On a chemistry forum on which i have been active for years i once joked " why not ban just all chemicals"
Let's go back to rocks and stones and drag every nice looking lady in ur cave, which might not be so bad after all."


I am sorry but rocks can be used as boiling stones so we are going to outlaw them. Therefore to keep in line with the new world police state order you will have to make your caves from something else. We will form a study group to see if you can safely make your caves out of materials in the produce section of your local grocery store.

Should you choose materials from the dairy section instead be advised we will be watching you at all times.

Magpie - 29-3-2009 at 12:23
Quote:

Should you choose materials from the dairy section instead be advised we will be watching you at all times


We will be especially watching those who visit the butcher shops. All bones must be returned to the butcher for proper state monitored disposal, for they are rich in phosphorus.

JohnWW - 29-3-2009 at 13:43

Beef bones, from which the meat has been stripped, are usually ground up to make "blood and bone" fertilizer, rich in P and N. It is a "green" substitute for superphosphate (sulfuric-acid treated ground rock phosphate), although lacking much S.

benzylchloride1 - 12-4-2009 at 22:08

All the pharmacies that I have visited will not sell chemicals. Once I talked to someone who obtained anhydrous isopropanol from a practicular pharmacy. I visited the pharmacy and asked if they had it or could order it. They refused to order it for me. Pharmacies seem to be the worst place to obtain chemicals. Some health food stores seem to carry more chemicals and are also more helpful. One local health food store carries 35% hydrogen peroxide in 1 quart and larger quantites for a reasonable price. I wonder how long that will last? My home lab is probably safer then the college's chemistry labs because all chemicals are properly and neatly stored. At the college flammable solvents are sitting out everywere and many bottles of chemicals are labled poorly. The labs are usually a mess. My home lab is so clean that it probably would not hurt to eat off of the floor. I am considered unusual at the university because I work on research at the chemistry lab all day when I am not in classes. Faculty are complaining because I am using way too many chemicals. They have never seen a student fascinated with chemistry to this degree. Most of the chemistry majors at my university are pre-health care and do not really care about chemistry and would prefer not to have any labs.

Magpie - 13-4-2009 at 09:41

I also tried the direct approach with a local pharmacy. The pharmacist, or technician, said that he could order chemicals for me and asked which ones I wanted. I really didn't have a list but just to test the system I asked for chloroform. He went to his catalog and said it wasn't listed. I believe I then asked him to check another chemical - same answer. I got the impression that they do so little compounding that he could get very little of interest to me. To my surprise, however, I didn't get the expected response of "What are you trying to do?" or "What do you want that for?" Perhaps my senior status (grey hair, etc) helped. GC recommends that the pharmacist be approached with a written order to a chemical company. I don't have the balls to try that.

I, too, have had better luck at my health food store and find the personnel there very helpful. They also have the 35% H2O2, which simply amazes me. It wasn't too long ago that the "authorities" were talking about pulling 12% H2O2 out of beauty shops. I have noted that strong H2O2 beauty products don't seem to be available in grocery stores anymore.

Who are the customers for 35% H2O2 in health food stores? I'm pretty sure it's not for home chemistry use.

benzylchloride1 - 13-4-2009 at 21:21

The 35% hydrogen peroxide is marketed to people who are growing plants via hydroponics for sterilizing their equipment.

GoatRider - 14-4-2009 at 04:06

Quote: Originally posted by benzylchloride1  
The 35% hydrogen peroxide is marketed to people who are growing plants via hydroponics for sterilizing their equipment.

But is it "organic" h2o2? ;P