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Backyard Blaster
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Stupid Mistake - A Warning to All
I've had plenty of experience making acetone peroxide, using HCl. But the other night, I had finally obtained some H2SO4 in the form of drain
opener. It had a reddish tint to it, and for some reason I assume it was quite dilute. I couldn't have been more wrong. After mixing the two
other ingredients and cooling the solution, I proceeded to what was thankfully a spacious work area to add the acid. Most, but not all, literature on
the subject says when using H2SO4 for this purpose, to add it drop by drop. It does not, however, mention what happens if you dump in a bunch (say,
50mL) at once. Assuming that the acid was dilute, and that this was safe to do, I proceeded to pour it into the mixture.
You can probably guess what happened next. If you can remember Mt. Saint Helens, than you've got a pretty accurate picture.
The violent chemical reaction left me with a huge mess on the floor, a jacket that now looks like swiss cheese, and a scare that will last me a
lifetime. I was able to wash the acid off my skin before it could cause any burns. I plan to clean up the rest of the mess with a water / sodium
bicarbonate mixture, which I will also use on my now-tattered jacket.
I immediately realized my mistake, and I still can't believe I did something so stupid. But I partly blame the literature for failing to point
out this dangerous possibility. It's another example, of what danger even a slight lack of knowledge can present. Hopefully by sharing this
experience I can spare someone else from perhaps serious injury.
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Nevermore
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not lacking of knowledge, but not reading the bottle, it is clearly written SULFURIC ACID 98%
Nevermore!
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Duster
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Lucky that was AP and not NG... Last thing *I* want is HNO3/H2SO4 splattering on me...
Duster
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Backyard Blaster
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Actually, I throughly read the labels before I even bought the stuff. It only says "CONTAINS SULPHURIC ACID", and does not specify the
concentration. I think it's a safe bet that it's at least 90% pure. I assume the red coloring, is to make spills easier to identify and
clean up. Given it's purity, I assume it would be suitable for such uses as HNO3 synthesis. Someday, when I get my wits back, I may give that a
try.
I always handle chemicals with the most extreme care, this is the first (and hopefully last) such accident I've ever had. Even the best of us
make a mistake at some point, and I'm sure many of you have similar stories to share.
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Nevermore
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go look for HNO3 at agricolture reseller, they use 55% conc for correcting the soil acidity adding NO3 at the same time, kinda cheap, 10 bucks for one
gallon...
Nevermore!
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madscientist
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It's unfair to blame the literature for the accident for its failing to cite everything that could go wrong assuming one blatantly ignored all
its instructuions.
Glad to hear you're okay, though. That incident could've been far more serious than it turned out to be.
[Edited on 8-10-2003 by madscientist]
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Backyard Blaster
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I don't entirely blame the literature; I'm just saying that it ought to point out this dangerous possibility. Most NG data warns of the
consequences of adding glycerine too quickly, but no AP data I've seen warns of a mistake like mine.
You're also right, that it could have been much worse. I usually prepare such mixtures on a shelf, but on this night, I had the bottle on the
floor because the light was better. Had this been on a shelf, at eye level.... I don't even want to think about it. It's still a miracle I
didn't get anything in my eyes, considering some did hit my face and the acid was spewed over a 6-foot+ diameter. You can be certain I'll
never make a mistake like this again.
Just out of curiosity, what gasses are produced when cleaning up an H2SO4 spill with NaC2 + water? I had to wonder, as I watched it fizz.....
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AngelEyes
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I did the same damn thing. I added a splash of H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> to about 100ml of
acetone/H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>. The sulphuric reacted with the water in the peroxide giving out a lot of heat. This I
assume vapourised the acetone which flash boiled taking most of the rest of the liquid with it in a cloud of vapour out the top of the beaker. I lost
some of the carpet, a few clothes (including a jumper I really liked) and a small amount of gas out of my backside. I count myself lucky that it
neither caught fire or went in my eye....could have been much worse.
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Backyard Blaster
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When this happened to you, was it a really violent reaction? Mine created a loud WHOOSH!!
While cleaning up the mess today, I even noticed some spatters on the ceiling....
It might be prudent for everyone to keep some baking soda handy, when working with any such acids. Just in case.
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AngelEyes
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Yep. For about half a second after the acid addition it was fine then, just as with yours, whoooosh! I guess the heat also liberated some
O<sub>2</sub> from the peroxide so I must have had a hot cloud of Acetone and O<sb>2</sub> - damn lucky it didn't ignite.
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vulture
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what gasses are produced when cleaning up an H2SO4 spill with NaC2 + water?
Honestly, this clearly shows why you fucked up. You're merely following recipes, instead of using your brain.
It's Na2CO3 in the first place. If you can't even get the formula right, then how you're supposed to figure out the concentration?
I suggest you take a step back and shape up your theory before doing any other "quickie" experiments.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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BromicAcid
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A similar mistake happened to me, although it wasn't a mistake. Back in my high school days when I didn't know what a haloform reaction was
I was trying to figure out why CH3COCH3 + NaOCl went to CHCl3 so I tried to figure out and did some experiments. I tried things like HCl + Acetone
and many others, finally I thought that the reaction was not doing good because I needed hypochloric acid to make the reaction work so I decided on
using peroxide so HCl + H2O2 ----> 2H2O + 1/2Cl2 then the peroxide would oxidize the chlorine to the hypochloric acid and the reaction would take
palce to make the chloroform (now it just seems stupid, you know, haloform reactions, basic enviorments) anyways, I mixed equal volume amounts of 40%
H2O2 30% HCl and Acetone for a total volume of a touch over 600 ml. White crystals started to condense on the inside of the flask just above the
liquid line. I freaked out and dumped it on the ground when it started seperating into layres and went over 170 C. On the ground crystals started
'pushing' out and the god awful chloroacetone started wreaking havoc with my eyes. I decided getting away would be a good thing so I went
into the house for a couple minutes, three minutes later there was a loud explosion, the spot where I poured the mixture out was now a one foot deep
crater. It was a very unique experience. Unique as in bad.
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Backyard Blaster
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(In response to the post by vulture:)
Just because I don't have your level of knowledge or experience, is no reason to be so nasty. Personally I think I do pretty well for somebody
who never studied chemistry.
Furthermore, I can assure you I DO use my brain and I take plenty of time to ensure such procedures are done correctly. But as humans we are not
perfect, and we can only try our best and learn from the mistakes that we do make. I'm sure you yourself have made a mistake or two at some
point....
I only posted this story to warn others of a danger - forgive me for trying to spare someone else of possible injury.
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vulture
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There's a big difference between having no knowledge, knowing what you are doing and expertise. I never said one should have chemical expertise
to conduct experiments, but the fact that you neutralized your acid with a chemical that you are not familiar with demonstrates my point.
If someone would have told you to use KClO3 to neutralize acid and you didn't know what the reaction products were, what would have happened?
You should atleast have a MINIMAL knowledge of the chemicals you are using!!
[Edited on 11-10-2003 by vulture]
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Backyard Blaster
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I may not have known the chemical formula, but I've known for years (as does anyone with half a brain) that baking soda is used to
neutralize acid. I also know that H2SO4 + KClO3 = NO2, so needless to say if someone had suggested this for cleanup, I wouldn't have believed it
for second.
I don't know everything, nor do I pretend to. Thanks to you, I at least know the formula for sodium bicarbonate.....
If you must share your knowledge in the future, please do so more graciously.
Just my $.02
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Mumbles
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Backyard Blaster
I also know that H2SO4 + KClO3 = NO2 |
Ok, first of all, that is in no way possible. There is not an atom of Nitrogen on the reactants side. That reaction actually forms a powerful
oxidiser. Cl<sub>2</sub>O<sub>7</sub> if I'm not mistaken. Even though it doesn't produce Nitrogen Dioxide, its
still not a good idea to, so you at least got that part right.
If you're going to be experimenting, you have to aquire a basic knowledge. Baking Soda is extremely common as well. We're not asking you
to remember the chemical formula to Teflon or Cellulose. Learn your elements, polyatomic ions, oxidation state, common compounds, monatomic ions,
what to expect from some reactions. Most of that is learned in about a month and a half in basic chemistry.
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Backyard Blaster
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Originally posted by Backyard Blaster
I also know that H2SO4 + KClO3 = NO2
I realized my mistake shortly after submitting. I got KClO3 confused with KNO3. Even with KNO3, I'm not sure if such a mix would produce NO2
without some source of heat.
I think I'd better just keep my mouth shut rather than expose any more of my ignorance.........
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vulture
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I realized my mistake shortly after submitting. I got KClO3 confused with KNO3.
Then why didn't you immediatly edit your reply? There are more than 15 hours between your 2 replies...
Other than that, it can not be explained by a typo, where are the rest of the reaction products?
So, frankly, I don't believe you.
I sincerely hope you realize now that YOU are the one to blame for your experiment gone wrong.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Backyard Blaster
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I didn't realize the mistake until after I'd gone to bed, and I wasn't about to go online at 1:00 a.m. just to avoid another lambasting
from you.
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Nevermore
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Just my two cents about this matter:
first of all buy a periodic table, completed with valence of the elements, then start practice with some simple reactions, you will see that there are
elements that easily displace others in some reactions, well those reaction are usually very common and useful: example H2SO4+2NaCl->Na2SO4+2HCl.
Then start thinking that cloric, percloric, ipocloric salts are oxidants, manganic, permanganic too..is just common experience, you don't need to
graduate in chem to understand those things. The remember most of the reactions give out lotsa of energy, so after you start them, they will proceed
by their own, and if you dun take out the heat, the reaction will always get faster and faster.
H2O2 is a strong oxididizer, acetone is a flammable, i wouldn't mix them together before ensured that th heat produced could be absorbed by some
ice bath, and i won't add any strong acid to it until it has reached a safe temperature.
You made a mistake with Ap this time, beside i really don't think that the compound exploded after being poured on the floor, since the heat was
heavily passed to floor, and the reactants were not in a concentrated form but in a thin layer, anyway, if you made this mistake with something else
at now maybe we won't even know.
Before playing with any chemical, open chemfinder, read all about that, open mdms read all about the hazard, then perform the reaction by your own on
paper, not following any recipe, work with tiny amount, keep a big becker filled with ice cold water nearby where you can pour the mixture in case
something starts to go wrong, and most of everything, add things dropwise unless you have been told not to do so.
Beware of NO2, i would fear it if i was you.
Nevermore!
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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Just stay away from Ap....
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KABOOOM(pyrojustforfun)
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<blockquote>quote:<hr>I think I'd better just keep my mouth shut rather than expose any more of my
ignorance.........<hr></blockquote>your best sentence under this thread. you're making joke outa yourself please STOP it.
if you knew properties of sulfuric acid you would doubtlessly test your acid and if it was conc you could dilute it with water. before starting the
procedure.
you don't seem to know even highschool level chemistry but are doing experiments with unstable explosives ...
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Backyard Blaster
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Thank you so much for your constuctive criticism! As if I hadn't received enough already.
Yes, I admit I didn't know everything about sulfuric acid. But I can assure you I've always handled AP with the utmost caution, and the fact
that I still have all my fingers despite having made dozens of batches of this stuff, is pretty good evidence......
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Mr.O-Nitrate
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wait a sec.....
I dont think its possible to dilute H2SO4 with water. It would just hiss and make a cloud of steam. Or can you dilute it with water?
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Mumbles
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Yes, it is possible to dilute with water. It is highly exothermic like you stated though. Its recomended to do it slowly and in an ice bath when
starting from 98% Sulfuric. Remember to add acid to the water.
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