Rhodanide
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Manganese Heptoxide + Nitromethane = Nothing?!
So, yesterday I tried combining small amounts of manganese heptoxide and Nitromethane. Prepared & aware of the risks, I put the two together...
and...
nothing. Absolutely nothing. My Nitromethane is 99% pure, bought from a supplier. Nor was my heptoxide to blame, it combusted or even detonated
everything else I put in it (I'm looking at you, Hexamine!).
Maybe a few bubbles were seen, but no flames, no MnO2 smoke, no sound, NOTHING!
Why?
Is there something obvious I'm missing? This is quite interesting to me.
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chornedsnorkack
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Quote: Originally posted by Tetra  | | Nor was my heptoxide to blame, it combusted or even detonated everything else I put in it (I'm looking at you, Hexamine!). |
Did you try alkanes?
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woelen
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Sometimes, two chemicals which are expected to be reactive towards each other, do not react. One thing, needed for spontaneous and exothermic reaction
is that the energy contents of the end products is much lower than the energy contents of the starting materials, but the other thing, which is
needed, is the presence of a pathway from the starting materials to the end materials.
Mn2O7, combined with many organics, including CH3NO2, has a lot of energy, so requirement 1 is met. Apparently, there is some difficultly going from
the reactants to the end products. Higher temperature can make certain pathways possible. Catalysts can create completely new pathways, which may be
easier to travel. Catalysts do not add more energy. I think that with Mn2O7+CH3NO2 gentle heating already may make a large difference.
Try heating a petri dish or hour glass to 100 C or so (in an oven). Quickly take this out of the oven, put one or two drops of CH3NO2 on it (by that
time it will have cooled down to well below 100 C), and then add a drop of Mn2O7. I expect it to set off in that case.
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Tdep
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I can vouch for this reaction not working. I tried it expecting big results but nothing. Manganese heptoxide made by the same method on the same day
set fire to ethanol and toluene instantly
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Rhodanide
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Negative.
Here are the results of what I threw in:
Hexamine: Detonation
Tetrachloroethylene: A violent, angry hissing noise
Guanidine Nitrate: A few pops, but not much else.
Nitrocellulose: Normal combustion/deflagration
Nitroguanidine: Nothing, but it was wet and very cold, which made this more or less understandable.
Hydrazine in EtOH: Extremely violent combustion
Sawdust: Combustion
Citric Acid: Excessive popping and flames
Ascorbic acid: Same as citric
Sulfur: Delayed detonation
Methanol: Combustion
Heating the Mn2O7: Decomposition.
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Rhodanide
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tdep | | I can vouch for this reaction not working. I tried it expecting big results but nothing. Manganese heptoxide made by the same method on the same day
set fire to ethanol and toluene instantly |
I could absolutely see you doing that. For a moment, the thought "Acetone Peroxide and Manganese heptoxide" crossed my mind, but that thought was
quickly shut out for obvious reasons.
I'm not messing with that shit ever again. Nor HMTD,
and ESPECIALLY NOT MEKP. HATE IT.
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Rhodanide
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | Sometimes, two chemicals which are expected to be reactive towards each other, do not react. One thing, needed for spontaneous and exothermic reaction
is that the energy contents of the end products is much lower than the energy contents of the starting materials, but the other thing, which is
needed, is the presence of a pathway from the starting materials to the end materials.
Mn2O7, combined with many organics, including CH3NO2, has a lot of energy, so requirement 1 is met. Apparently, there is some difficultly going from
the reactants to the end products. Higher temperature can make certain pathways possible. Catalysts can create completely new pathways, which may be
easier to travel. Catalysts do not add more energy. I think that with Mn2O7+CH3NO2 gentle heating already may make a large difference.
Try heating a petri dish or hour glass to 100 C or so (in an oven). Quickly take this out of the oven, put one or two drops of CH3NO2 on it (by that
time it will have cooled down to well below 100 C), and then add a drop of Mn2O7. I expect it to set off in that case. |
Good info, woe, thanks! 
The beaker was in the snow, but not for long. I would think that the reaction of KMnO4 and H2SO4 would generate at least some heat, but as I said, it
was in snow. I added some snow to precipitate the Heptoxide which likely cooled the soln. down as well.
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mayko
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tetra |
I could absolutely see you doing that. For a moment, the thought "Acetone Peroxide and Manganese heptoxide" crossed my mind, but that thought was
quickly shut out for obvious reasons. |
These two do exactly what one would expect when they meet.
.... stop judging me ....
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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Rhodanide
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| Quote: Originally posted by mayko | | Quote: Originally posted by Tetra |
I could absolutely see you doing that. For a moment, the thought "Acetone Peroxide and Manganese heptoxide" crossed my mind, but that thought was
quickly shut out for obvious reasons. |
These two do exactly what one would expect when they meet.
.... stop judging me .... |
Yeeeeeaaaahhh...
Not gonna try that LOL
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Sulaiman
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or, on the assumption that activation energy is the problem,
mix the manganese heptoxide and nitromethane
then add a drop or piece of one of the substances that does react vigorously with Mn2O7.
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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Melgar
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Why is everyone so surprised that they don't react? Essentially, you're mixing two oxidizers. Or rather, an oxidizer with a molecule that's highly
oxidized on one side, and an alkane on the other side. IIRC, nitromethane can only be oxidized by free-radical pathways, which would be above the
temperature at which Mn2O7 decomposes.
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feacetech
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Mn2O7 is a dangerous beast and not always predictable
I remember playing with it I was dripping very small drips onto processed bone dust (think bone component of blood and bone) with a very fine glass
dropper
sometimes it would burn, sometimes smoulder
but on the odd occasion it would have an ear splitting crack.
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Rhodanide
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| Quote: Originally posted by feacetech | Mn2O7 is a dangerous beast and not always predictable
I remember playing with it I was dripping very small drips onto processed bone dust (think bone component of blood and bone) with a very fine glass
dropper
sometimes it would burn, sometimes smoulder
but on the odd occasion it would have an ear splitting crack. |
...Bone dust? Doesn't seem it would have much energy potential...
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feacetech
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yea that's what I thought, it did have a small amount of fat in it but not much (1%) lots of ash and next to no nitrogen
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by feacetech | | yea that's what I thought, it did have a small amount of fat in it but not much (1%) lots of ash and next to no nitrogen |
Carbon, from the protein (collagen and keratin, I think) that holds the bone together.
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Rhodanide
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Well, regardless... It probably has not only minerals in it as well as water which I would think would both slow down any other reactions occurring.
Who knows, I may be wrong. :]
I've never tried this so I'm just going off of what I'd think would happen
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