MeshPL
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Cleaning dishes with NaOH
So... It may seem that vast chemistry knowledge may be not very useful in everyday life. However I think that this one piece of knowlege is could be
potentialy useful.
I started wondering why nobody is using (solutions of) NaOH to clean their dishes. It's cheap. It's enviroment friendly compared to regular
surfactants. It is sure anti-microbial. It cleans fats and proteins well. You could probably use a 1 bath to clean a pile of dishes with little
effort. The only bad things about this, are the facts that:
-it is dangerous (but so are knives)
-it may corrode the dishes (although the rate may be dependant on the materials, stainles steel cutlery should be resistant, so are plastic ones,
ceramic and glass dishes are a different thing)
-when washed of with hard water (containing calcium and magnesium) it will leave a residue. Nothing a little dip in HCl before final washing wiyh
water can't fix, however.
What do you think guys? Is it the future of everyday kitchen?
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j_sum1
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Well, NaOH is traditionally used in spray-on oven cleaners but is generally on the way out because the aerosol fumes are a bit harsh to breathe in.
That and the fact that it is a good marketing spin to say, "contains no harsh chemicals" or "non-caustic".
So, yeah, it could be done but convincing people it is a great idea for their dishes would be problematic.
Round here, NaOH is used as a drain cleaner. It is pretty pure too. (Unless you buy the version with bits of aluminium turnings in it.) Also
standard bleach contains NaOH as well.
One difficult thing is that it does tend to mess up the skin on your hands -- worse than acids IMO.
I think the idea is reasonably sound but marketing the idea would be an uphill battle and I don't think it would fly.
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unionised
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Quote: Originally posted by MeshPL  | So... It may seem that vast chemistry knowledge may be not very useful in everyday life. However I think that this one piece of knowlege is could be
potentialy useful.
I started wondering why nobody is using (solutions of) NaOH to clean their dishes...
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I do.
It's easy, and I'm lazy.
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Sulaiman
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NaOH for dishwashing is not a good idea in my opinion because;
. risk, especially to children ... far more dangerous (eyes etc.) to children than diluted surfactants/detergents.
. need to always wear sturdy glove ... removal of fats causing dermatitis
. incompatibility with aluminium
. how to make large profits selling cheap stuff ?
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MeshPL
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I mean, I don't wanna sell NaOH. I wanna use it and promote it's usage. I should try using this in the near future.
I know safety is the issue. It's doubtless. But whith planned setup it shouldn't be a big problem. Just set up a setup where there are two deep
containers, one with NaOH, one with acid (NaHSO4 wouldn't be a bad idea, and some amateur chemists will have it as a leftover from making HNO3 and
other things). Additionaly there should be two hangers and a plastic basket with long handles. Just put dishes in a basket, dip into NaOH, wait, hang
basket above NaOH, to let it drip down, repeat with NaHSO4, wash with a bit of water.
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Mabus
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Using NaOH to clean your dishes is not a good idea mainly because most porcelain and its glazing tends to have lots of alumina, which dissolves in
strong bases and will slowly corrode your dishware. Glasses might not be an issue, but you'll need very pure sodium hydroxide, which the store grade
might not be, due to various toxic impurities.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | I mean, I don't wanna sell NaOH. I wanna use it and promote it's usage. I should try using this in the near future. |
You might want to tame it with stearic acid first . . . oh wait . . .
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mabus | | Using NaOH to clean your dishes is not a good idea mainly because most porcelain and its glazing tends to have lots of alumina, which dissolves in
strong bases and will slowly corrode your dishware. Glasses might not be an issue, but you'll need very pure sodium hydroxide, which the store grade
might not be, due to various toxic impurities. |
In fact, it works just fine. I've been doing it for years and the glaze still seems to be on the plates.
Odd as it may seem, I rinse off the NaOH afterwards. this also removes any impurities that might have been in it.
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Mailinmypocket
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I use it to remove baked on crap from "Pyrex" baking dishes from time to time. Works great. It's just the hardware store stuff, white prills. It's not
a very safe thing to have in every kitchen though. It's horribly dangerous to the eyes and lots of people are clumsy and/or irresponsible and will
have accidents.
Otherwise it works wonders on glass and porcelain
Note to self: Tare the damned flask.
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BromicAcid
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If you think NaOH is good, why not ammonium bifluoride?
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blogfast25
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Because you're comparing apples and oranges.
I've used 15 % NaOH to clean carbon encrusted SS pots (no Al of course), Pyrex dishes and our kitchen oven. Sometimes also badly charred lab glass
ware. Works a treat and there's no etching effect.
Here it's sold as the thickened version, which already makes it a lot safer.
NH4HF2 doesn't have the same effect on carbon-rich encrustations but, depending on concentration of course, does etch glass. And
water soluble fluorides are very toxic and will cause very painful skin burns.
Little known fact: the use of HF in car washes:
https://www.carwash.org/docs/default-source/safety-resources...
[Edited on 13-3-2016 by blogfast25]
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BromicAcid
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Apples and oranges? I thought we were discussing potentially hazardous chemicals that can do a heck of a job cleaning glass? Any difficult to remove
spots on our glassware at work either get a KOH/EtOH soak or an ammonium bifluorde soak. We use it all the time, we have dispensers for it, and it
works great. Yes, it's more hazardous than NaOH, but my understanding was that this thread was looking at these compounds assuming they could be
handled safely. The solutions we use are only about 2.5% and they work great.
Anyway, the only reason we have to use things like ethanolic KOH is because you cannot reach the inside bottom of the flasks to mechanically expunge
the junk. With a Pyrex baking pan that's not an issues so some elbow grease can determination can go a long way. So long as you don't let that stuff
start building up. For those interested here is an article on the best home remedy:
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/home/cleaning/tips/a32751/be...
Love that I'm linking to Good Housekeeping on a chemistry forum.
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unionised
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Among the differences is that I can buy caustic fairly cheaply from the supermarket.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid | | Apples and oranges? I thought we were discussing potentially hazardous chemicals that can do a heck of a job cleaning glass?
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I thought we were discussing washing dishes with NaOH. Would anyone, even with simple (and effective) precautions, use dilute
NH4HF2 for that purpose?
[Edited on 13-3-2016 by blogfast25]
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aga
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Erm, no.
"for hands that did dishes to drip as soft molten flesh, use wild green* scary liquid"
This is better :-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_LaVvSIT_8
*poetic licence.
[Edited on 13-3-2016 by aga]
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ave369
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The idea of using strong chemicals to clean badly fouled kitchenware got into my mind, too. But I have a problem other than greasy dishes on my mind:
how to clean hard carbon residue from aluminium saucepans? Obviously, some strong oxidizing mixture is needed, but which will not corrode aluminium
itself?
Smells like ammonia....
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MeshPL
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90% HNO3 doesn't dissolve aluminium, it makes it passivate. Pretty sure more dilute nitric acid also works.
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annaandherdad
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About 10 years ago my mother had some dishwasher detergent whose active ingredient was NaOH. It was a kind of gel, and intended for automatic
dishwashers. I don't remember the brand name.
Any other SF Bay chemists?
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | But I have a problem other than greasy dishes on my mind: how to clean hard carbon residue from aluminium saucepans. |
My wife cleared out all our aluminium cookware some good few years back over concerns about its toxicity!
All we worry about now is chromium leaching from SS . . . 
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Magpie
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I keep an ethanol/NaOH solution handy for periodic cleaning of glassware or use when there are especially stubborn deposits. I have been distilling
terpenes which left a resinous deposit in the pot. This would not come off with repeated scrubbings with hot water/dish soap. A few hours at room
temp in the ethanol/NaOH bath took it right out.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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vmelkon
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| Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise | | Quote: | | But I have a problem other than greasy dishes on my mind: how to clean hard carbon residue from aluminium saucepans. |
My wife cleared out all our aluminium cookware some good few years back over concerns about its toxicity!
All we worry about now is chromium leaching from SS . . .
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We have received a pan made of glass as a gift. I guess it is borosilicate glass. It is about 30 cm in diameter and 3 cm high. It is good for making
eggs.
There are pans of all sorts of shapes made from glass.
Signature ==== Is this my youtube page? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA5PYtul5aU
We must attach the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance and give a few good jolts.
Yes my evolutionary friends. We are all homos here. |
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ave369
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| Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise |
My wife cleared out all our aluminium cookware some good few years back over concerns about its toxicity!
All we worry about now is chromium leaching from SS . . .
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Discarding aluminium cookware is NOT an option for me.
Smells like ammonia....
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Mabus
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised | | Quote: Originally posted by Mabus | | Using NaOH to clean your dishes is not a good idea mainly because most porcelain and its glazing tends to have lots of alumina, which dissolves in
strong bases and will slowly corrode your dishware. Glasses might not be an issue, but you'll need very pure sodium hydroxide, which the store grade
might not be, due to various toxic impurities. |
In fact, it works just fine. I've been doing it for years and the glaze still seems to be on the plates.
Odd as it may seem, I rinse off the NaOH afterwards. this also removes any impurities that might have been in it. |
I assume you don't use a very concentrated NaOH solution and you don't leave the plates in it for days? That usually is no problem.
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Schleimsäure
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I actually used it in the dish washer a few times. Put it in the chamber where else the commercial tablets fit into.
Worked well.
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macckone
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No scrub oven cleaner.
Works on most metals and they have varieties that are safe for
self cleaning ovens. Self cleaning oven lining is ceramic so that
handles most dishware. I would not recommend these on aluminum
or plastic as they contain a corrosive mix of ammonia and amine based
compounds with some kind of hydroxide.
It will dissolve all but the most carbonized crud and that includes
aluminum and plastics. The good news is the most carbonized
crud usually just flakes off with a light scrubbing after a good soak
of the cleaner because whatever was holding it together just
got dissolved.
Some of the varieties may be safe for aluminum and plastic
but I would check the label.
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