| Pages:
1
2 |
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
High Temperature Safe Potassium-Chlorate based Rocket Candy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cbygReqks
i have cooked up this stuff 10x now and even left the stove on with leftover mixture still in it and it all turned black but did not ignite
Also when i ignited the blackened leftover mixture it burnt like H3
thats for a future video however possibly a new way to make H3
on temperatures near or higher than 200 without mixing is very dangerous !!
I have tested several mixtures and still test before cooking the stuff by putting a tiny amount in the pan and leaving it to see if it ignites and
putting a normal mixture of chlorate and sugar beside it after a few minutes the normal chlorate mixture ignited while this one just turned black.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdmF16cvoGk
The link above is me purposely leaving it on the pan for too long at slightly higher temperature and it lasted around 10 minutes after the video till
it was all black!! and even then it did not ignite but burnt super fast when i scraped it off and tested it
my conclusion is this mix is safer than even nitrate and will not ignite even when it begins to decompose
[Edited on 28-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
|
|
|
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
Posts: 231
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The combination of melting and stirring makes me very nervous! Molten chlorate mixtures have the nasty habit of detonating with frightening violence.
It may not happen for another hundred batches, but when it does, it will send the spoon flying through the roof.
You should also be aware that chlorate based mixtures have (at least in my experience) a rather steep pressure-burnspeed curve. So increasing motor
pressure just a little bit may very well lead to a RUD.
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  | The combination of melting and stirring makes me very nervous! Molten chlorate mixtures have the nasty habit of detonating with frightening violence.
It may not happen for another hundred batches, but when it does, it will send the spoon flying through the roof.
You should also be aware that chlorate based mixtures have (at least in my experience) a rather steep pressure-burnspeed curve. So increasing motor
pressure just a little bit may very well lead to a RUD. |
i have tested the friction sensetivity with a file at high temperatures by heavily
mixing it and i used only a small amount and no Detonation
this stuff still is scary because if it does go off at this temp it will deflagrate or even detonate and the power of this Rcandy is crazy
btw you need the sodium citrate because when sugar is present it increases the burn rate to about whistle mix speed But the cornstarch slows it down
and prevents it from igniting on the stove
one of my batches without cornstarch caught fire and there was a huge cloud of smoke but that was when i tested that batch the same way by leaving it
on high temperatures
i made a video about making H3 by carbonizing the starch of the chlorate rocket candy on the stove at 200 degrees celsius and scraping it up later IT
BURNS INSANELY FAST
but im afraid to attempt it again for obvious reasons
video link comming soon
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
also about the rockets i have had one detonate on me when i made the nozzle too small and it sent pvc flying 20 feet and left my ears ringing also i
light all of them with all with my laser so i can escape
and i use a slow burning fuse
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Melting point of sugar is around 150 c°
Melting and decompostion of potassium chlorate is around 200c° higher.
Question:
Dont you think you have a suspension of chlorate in your molten fuel (as I do with Sorbitol and KNO3)
If if burns as low as 200 c° isnt it because of the sugar?
I never have to get that high with Sorbitol (mp around 100c°) and just mix my KNO3 + Fe2O3 when it's molten, then pour in my containers.
Since I do that for light and smoke I even add coarse Mg turnings and fill my containers in several times.
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber | Melting point of sugar is around 150 c°
Melting and decompostion of potassium chlorate is around 200c° higher.
Question:
Dont you think you have a suspension of chlorate in your molten fuel (as I do with Sorbitol and KNO3)
If if burns as low as 200 c° isnt it because of the sugar?
I never have to get that high with Sorbitol (mp around 100c°) and just mix my KNO3 + Fe2O3 when it's molten, then pour in my containers.
Since I do that for light and smoke I even add coarse Mg turnings and fill my containers in several times. |
sugar has a mp of 140-160
this mix partially decomposes at 200 turning into carbon
higher temperatures are dangerous because the chlorate can react when the carbon forms and is left for too long or the temperature is high enough
in my 2nd video i purposely let the sugars and starches decompose into carbon in order to make H3 and it worked!! but its dangerous as fk and i wont
attempt it again
btw add some sodium citrate to your sorbitol chlorate mix because
sodium citrate increases the burn rate dramatically due to the fact that it can also be used as whistle mix when mixed with sugar!!
in a sense this stuff is whistle mix with the wrong proportions and with starch added
i have another vid below of whistle mix using the exact same recipe without the starch and at near stoichiometric proportions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc89C302RI0
this mixture is more dangerous and autoignites above 140 degrees
and yes it whistles but im done with whistle rockets they are too scary
http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/content/filerepository/CM...
this says that normal sugar mixtures will ignite at 159 celsius
however says that lactose and chlorate mixtures will ignite at around 200 WHEN CARBON BEGINS TO FORM
adding a little starch causes the carbon to form in my mixture before it spontaneously ignites
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
this mixture is highly versatile
it can become one of the following pyro compositions using the same ingredients just with different proportions and or cooked at different
temperatures
i even had a few batches that REDUCED the iron oxide into iron metal that is magnetic and shiny
its as if the iron oxide acted like a secondary oxidizer and a catalyst but that's a mystery maybe
some of you can solve or know of.
1:Whistle mix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc89C302RI0
2:Rocket candy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cbygReqks
3:H3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjb6UFpS2wM
4:Smoke mix
just dillute the chlorate more
the last video above is the same mixed partially decomposes into H3
though its not as fast a ball milled H3 its faster than H3 mixed without milling
if you ball mill this i wonder if it will be awesome or if i had decomposed the whistle instead of the Rcandy in the presence of starch but im afraid
to do that experiment!!
and i wont ever do this one again either because of how stupid it is
[Edited on 1-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice |
this mix partially decomposes at 200 turning into carbon
higher temperatures are dangerous because the chlorate can react when the carbon forms and is left for too long or the temperature is high enough
|
That margin is far too low for me. That's why I use Sorbitol and KNO3. Besides, KNO3 decomposition is endothermic so you really need to give it a good
kick (like a catalyser) to really get it going.
Downside: it's mildly hygroscopic. A problem that I solve with black powder mixed in NC lacquer to ensure ignition. It forms a solid plastic that
doesnt let water through.
| Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice |
btw add some sodium citrate to your sorbitol chlorate mix because
sodium citrate increases the burn rate dramatically due to the fact that it can also be used as whistle mix when mixed with sugar!!
|
I noticed that! Burn rate is almost too fast. I dont have citrate but tons of benzoate if I wanted to try a whistle mix. I should do that someday.
I only use lactose in powder form, no melt cast. Besides, when I use lactose it's to make smoke bombs / flares with Strontium nitrate / potassium
perchlorate and some parlon or PVC. The idea is to burn the container (AL tube) and add some titanium or magnesium for a more spectacular effect.
Consider that all my composition are used indoors (underground, so no risk of fire) and I have to take at least a bit the health of the spectators /
victims.
So no greens, blues or other colors that would need really nasty metals.
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
the whistle mix variation of this mixture in a pen tube
https://youtu.be/gyPA1k6V2-I
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
@Mysteriusbhoice,
I like your blue LASER ignition system...it is good from a safe distance for fuses.
But beware for your plastic pen tubes with whistle mix...you don't attach them so there is a risk they start to fly randomly and with such a flame it
could set fire anywhere inside your house...imagine it goes under your sofa...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone | @Mysteriusbhoice,
I like your blue LASER ignition system...it is good from a safe distance for fuses.
But beware for your plastic pen tubes with whistle mix...you don't attach them so there is a risk they start to fly randomly and with such a flame it
could set fire anywhere inside your house...imagine it goes under your sofa... |
EDITED:COPPER 2 is the devil and it blew up and gassed the house
started to smell like when i mixed it with sulfur before it autoignited and then BOOM PSSHJHHHHSHSHSH
potassium citrate tho with a little copper oxide might be safe but yea organic or soluble copper = will cause devastation
[Edited on 8-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
@Mysteriusbhoice,
Although interesting colourfull expermient for the short term storage and in limited amount...
--> I'm more than eager to see your video about it!
But do not forget that copper (II) is not very stable when mixed with chlorates...probable unstability of Cu(ClO3)2 via mutual oxydoredox.
Cu(2+) may also favor catalytic decomposition at lower temperature...that's probably the effect you expose.
Such mixes usually smell chlorine and are thus quite corrosive to surrounding metals. I had very bad corrosion of coffee tin can with it.
Be sure your citric acid is fully neutralized. Any remaining acidity is bad news with chlorates.
Better use unsoluble basic CuCO3, CuCl(OH), CuO or Cu(OH)2 with chlorate mix to get the blue-green flame colour...and of course no sodium allowed
--> favor potassium citrate for best colour expression. Too hot a flame will shift the color to white, too much fuel will mean a lot of carbon will
shift it to light green-grey (carbon burn yellow-orange).
It is the combination of chloride atom from chlorate and Copper cation that yield the blue-green color....see very common use of PVC/Copper dust in
pyro green-blue flares.
If it is a moldable fuel mix that you want maybe try with other bicationic or tricationic metals that are more compatible with chlorates...
--> Calcium, Zinc, Iron (II), Aluminium, Magnesium, Manganese (II),... citrates
[Edited on 8-3-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone | @Mysteriusbhoice,
Although interesting colourfull expermient for the short term storage and in limited amount...
--> I'm more than eager to see your video about it!
But do not forget that copper (II) is not very stable when mixed with chlorates...probable unstability of Cu(ClO3)2 via mutual oxydoredox.
Cu(2+) may also favor catalytic decomposition at lower temperature...that's probably the effect you expose.
Such mixes usually smell chlorine and are thus quite corrosive to surrounding metals. I had very bad corrosion of coffee tin can with it.
Be sure your citric acid is fully neutralized. Any remaining acidity is bad news with chlorates.
Better use unsoluble basic CuCO3, CuCl(OH), CuO or Cu(OH)2 with chlorate mix to get the blue-green flame colour...and of course no sodium allowed
--> favor potassium citrate for best colour expression. Too hot a flame will shift the color to white, too much fuel will mean a lot of carbon will
shift it to light green-grey (carbon burn yellow-orange).
It is the combination of chloride atom from chlorate and Copper cation that yield the blue-green color....see very common use of PVC/Copper dust in
pyro green-blue flares.
If it is a moldable fuel mix that you want maybe try with other bicationic or tricationic metals that are more compatible with chlorates...
--> Calcium, Zinc, Iron (II), Aluminium, Magnesium, Manganese (II),... citrates
|
well i found that out
i did a small test batch and it went up as soon as i put it in
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
btw i tried various fuels and i found a way to make flares with potassium palmitate!!
and mixed it with chlorate and it creates nice slow burning flares
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice | btw i tried various fuels and i found a way to make flares with potassium palmitate!!
and mixed it with chlorate and it creates nice slow burning flares |
Try candle wax, KClO3, glucose for strong fumigenes 
A 33cl coke tin can will make a huge cloud very effective in closed areas (not indoor because of the heat and flame) without too much wind...and
extremely good in forest by cold weather...
The fumes goes up and then down to the ground by cooling generating a londonian smog on which the shadow of trees is projected by the burning KClO3,
Wax, Suggar candle  
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
too bad cuz i dont live in a cold country
so it will just be a smoke signal!!
my next experiment is adding sugar or citrate to vaselate to get a better detonation!!
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice | too bad cuz i dont live in a cold country
so it will just be a smoke signal!!
my next experiment is adding sugar or citrate to vaselate to get a better detonation!! |
Vaselate...is a kind of cheddite explosive
Vaseline (paraffin grease)/KClO3 mix will not detonate without a good detonator...usually chlorate mixes only deflagrate strongly... and may maybe
detonate if in quite large quantities (that allow for sufficient self-confinement).
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
i know that and im thinking of synthesizing some HMTD to detonate the vaselate
and compare the normal recipe with the recipe containing citrate
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
HMTD is bad choice as a detonator for obvious safety concerns...but since you are already playing with chlorates and whistle mixes, you know the
risks.
Avoid metal contact with HMTD especially the copper and Cu(2+) from you special sensitive whistle mix...MnO2 might also be tricky...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone | HMTD is bad choice as a detonator for obvious safety concerns...but since you are already playing with chlorates and whistle mixes, you know the
risks.
Avoid metal contact with HMTD especially the copper and Cu(2+) from you special sensitive whistle mix...MnO2 might also be tricky...
|
I read about hmtd long ago and i know that for the detonator i cant put the metal from an electric match directly onto it
im also going to use a plastic container to house it in and fully neutralize the hmtd in the synthesis to reduce the sensetivity
[Edited on 26-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
|
|
|
Chemist_Cup_Noodles
Harmless
Posts: 46
Registered: 27-5-2015
Location: Northern VA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Anticipative
|
|
Wait, why are you using HMTD? At that point you might as well use ATP, it's technically more stable. But to detonate it, seems like you could just use
your laser since it's so unstable.
On another note, do you buy or make your KClO3? Have you ever considered throwing it in a perchlorate cell? You can make a GSLD for this somewhat easy. Maybe even make some perchloric acid, and then ammonium perchlorate.
I have never seen sodium citrate used in any SRB's. This is good stuff. But recently I've started using a little bit of sodium metabisulfite in my
mixtures of KNO3 and sugar for a little extra kick. I tried it out the other day and it certainly produced quite the burn rate. With a
little additional sulfur powder in it too, every time I tried lighting the wet mixture it would ignite a little but it would produce so much gas the
torch would get blown out instantly. After burning quite a sizeable amount of this mixture, I noticed extremely little solid remnants, maybe even less
than with plain KNO3 sugar mix. I'm off of work today so I'm going to experiment some more.
I'll be honest-- We're throwing science at the wall here to see what sticks. No idea what it'll do.
-Cave Johnson, Portal 2
Add yourself to this map of SciMad members! https://zeemaps.com/map?group=388676&add=1
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Chemist_Cup_Noodles | Wait, why are you using HMTD? At that point you might as well use ATP, it's technically more stable. But to detonate it, seems like you could just use
your laser since it's so unstable.
On another note, do you buy or make your KClO3? Have you ever considered throwing it in a perchlorate cell? You can make a GSLD for this somewhat easy. Maybe even make some perchloric acid, and then ammonium perchlorate.
I have never seen sodium citrate used in any SRB's. This is good stuff. But recently I've started using a little bit of sodium metabisulfite in my
mixtures of KNO3 and sugar for a little extra kick. I tried it out the other day and it certainly produced quite the burn rate. With a
little additional sulfur powder in it too, every time I tried lighting the wet mixture it would ignite a little but it would produce so much gas the
torch would get blown out instantly. After burning quite a sizeable amount of this mixture, I noticed extremely little solid remnants, maybe even less
than with plain KNO3 sugar mix. I'm off of work today so I'm going to experiment some more. |
i make my KClO3 using MMO anodes i bought
and sodium citrate is amazing shiz it accelerates the burn rate
i made a rocket without it and it performed poorly compared to the one with it
now the question is why is it better !!
perhaps its like using sodium benzoate but more acessible
also adding a little starch allows chlorate mixtures to be heated strongly until it carbonizes but if the temp is above 200 celsius it will explode
like any mixture heated that strongly
also sodium acetate works but that fuel is DANGEROUS its highly explosive and unstable and any cooking will cause it to detonate it works too well and
gives INSANE BURN RATE!!
|
|
|
Eosin Y
Banned troll
Posts: 83
Registered: 8-5-2016
Location: Eton College science department
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aga needs to cool his heels
|
|
This is just why I haven't started with energetics yet! 1 out of 100 times, my huge (Sod's Law) batch of potassium acetate-copper perchlorate rocket
mix doesn't burn, and I instead end up with no hands and a hole in my ceiling.
If you can get an EPP license, you can get free-flowing Na and K ClO4 from a number of suppliers. I think that, stochiometrically, you would need 65
grams of NaClO4 and 53 grams of 90% One Shot H2SO4 drain cleaner (an excess of 4 grams of NaClO4) to synthesise, in theory, 50 grams of HClO4, which
can then be just blunt-force distilled with a Bunsen burner to yield very pure HClO4. Be very careful when you distill, as I think that careless
distillation results in Cl2O7, which is not good. I'd recommend these mixes in theory:
CuClO4 - sodium benzoate
NH4ClO4 - sodium benzoate
CoClO4 - sodium acetate
These are just the first things that come to mind. If I can get some distillation apparatus, I might experiment with some of them.
|
|
|
Microtek
National Hazard
Posts: 872
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
An easier way to perchloric acid is to use highly concentrated HCl (37-40 %) and NaClO4. In the mix, NaCl is practically insoluble (common ion
effect), so filtering off the NaCl will give you a mix of hydrochloric and perchloric acids. This can then be heated (or distilled) to drive off the
HCl. By heating the liquid to 135 C, the perchloric acid will be pure enough to not give a precipitate with AgNO3.
Problems with this method are:
- You need a acid resistant filter, preferably a fritted glass Büchner
- You really need a very highly concentrated hydrochloric acid or the solubility of NaCl will be appreciable
Advantages:
- If your NaClO4 contains some chlorate it will be destroyed
- You avoid high temperature distillation of HClO4 and all the dangers associated with that
|
|
|
Eosin Y
Banned troll
Posts: 83
Registered: 8-5-2016
Location: Eton College science department
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aga needs to cool his heels
|
|
The other problem is that I don't have a hot plate. I'm setting up a home lab at the moment, and a hot plate is something I can't afford. My method
involves high temperature HClO4, but there is no need for separation of H2SO4 and HClO4 as the excess of NaClO4 will see to that. Anyway, I can
distill it off and destroy any Cl2O7 with distilled water, before it destroys my glassware.
[Edited on 11-5-2016 by Eosin Y]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
