RogueRose
International Hazard
Posts: 1594
Registered: 16-6-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Most easily made sulfate from elemental sulfur (powdered sulfur - flours of sulfur)
I'm curious what would be the easiest sulfate compound to make from powdered sulfur + another compound + process (heating, electrolysis, etc). I know
H2SO4 seems to be pretty difficult to do on a home lab scale (at least from what I've read), but are there other sulfates that are fairly easy to
produce?
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6325
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Burn S and pass the resultant SO2 gas through a slurry of MnO2. You will get Manganese sulfate in solution which can be filtered off the remaining
MnO2. If you use battery gunk the procedure is totally otc.
Nurdrage has a video of the setup. I have tried it and it works nicely.
|
|
|
ave369
Eastern European Lady of Mad Science
Posts: 596
Registered: 8-7-2015
Location: No Location
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There is a quite simple H2SO4 preparation from SO2 (made by burning elemental sulfur). You need to bubble the gas through concentrated hydrogen
peroxide. Of course, it is impractical (at least where I live, concentrated H2O2 is much harder to obtain and more sought after than the resulting
dilute H2SO4 which is in every car parts shop).
There is a more complex method to make H2SO4 straight from elemental sulfur: NurdRage's electrobromine method. You need hydrobromic acid for that, but
it is not expended, it works like a catalyst. Seek the video among NurdRage's Youtube videos.
Smells like ammonia....
|
|
|
gsd
National Hazard
Posts: 847
Registered: 18-8-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  | Burn S and pass the resultant SO2 gas through a slurry of MnO2. You will get Manganese sulfate in solution which can be filtered off the remaining
MnO2. If you use battery gunk the procedure is totally otc.
Nurdrage has a video of the setup. I have tried it and it works nicely. |
This is indeed a one step process to get MnSO4 from its original raw materials. In the conventional process you have convert MnO2 to MnO and SO2 to
H2SO4 and then react them to get MnSO4.
Unfortunately MnSO4 is not the only product of the reaction. You get sizable quantity of Manganese dithionate as well.
MnO2 + SO2 ----- > MnSO4
MnO2 + 2SO2 ------> MnS2O6
In an uncontrolled reaction you get as much as 35 % Dithionate and 65% Sulfate. The percentage conversion to Sulfate can be verified by filtering the
final solution and evaporating to dryness to get crystals. Pure MnSO4 crystallizes as Monohydrate giving % Mn as 32.5% as pure dried MnSO4.H2O
crystals (MW=169). If it is contaminated with Manganese Dithionate (MW=215) then the Mn % comes down correspondingly.
BTW the formation of Dithionate is not easily detected as the colour of solution is unchanged from that of pure MnSO4 solution (Bright Pink).
gsd
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
It should be noted that manganese sulfate (like zinc sulfate) is also OTC. It is a commonly used agricultural nutrient.
You won't find it in your average home and garden center, but it is widely and cheaply available (try Googling or eBay).
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Beginning at page 54 of "Simple Chemical Experiments, Alfred Morgan" in the SM Library
http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/morgan_simpl...
"CHAPTER III
EXPERIMENTS WITH SULFUR AND
SOME OF ITS COMPOUNDS"
Sulphur trioxide was much simpler back in 1941.
|
|
|
annaandherdad
Hazard to Others
Posts: 387
Registered: 17-9-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
That's a nice book.
Any other SF Bay chemists?
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
Handling was just as complicated though- Note the author is not telling the kids to COLLECT the SO3.
Anyone planning on scaling this up and collecting the SO3- Please consider that you would be heating a fuel and an oxidizer in a (mostly closed)
container. Overheating/a thermal runaway with more than the specified tiny amount has the potential to get frisky. BLAM!
Check the SO3 production threads for handling properties of SO3, behavior on contacting water (more BLAM!), etc. and proceed accordingly.
But do it. For the children...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
That comment sparked a possibly interesting idea :
If controllable in small ammounts, yet not in large quantities, why not make an Injection engine (like a diesel engine).
BLAM ! Eject gas, eject residues, inject fresh reagents. BLAM ! etc etc.
Exhaust gas is a continuous SO3 stream
H2SO4 by the agaEngine<sup>tm</sup> Process is born.
[Edited on 15-1-2016 by aga]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | That comment sparked a possibly interesting idea :
If controllable in small ammounts, yet not in large quantities, why not make an Injection engine (like a diesel engine).
BLAM ! Eject gas, eject residues, inject fresh reagents. BLAM ! etc etc.
Exhaust gas is a continuous SO3 stream
H2SO4 by the agaEngine<sup>tm</sup> Process is born.
[Edited on 15-1-2016 by aga] |
SO2 doesn't oxidise to SO3 without catalyst. See 'Contact Process'.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
What did you imagine the engine was made of ?
(or at least the cylinder liner & piston head)
[Edited on 15-1-2016 by aga]
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
I suspect the successful reaction is liquid-solid with only the Sulfur melted, if both reactants melt/reach a proper hot liquid mix, you will probably
have BLAM.
There have been a number of attempts to make a piston engine run on solid, self oxidizing EM's or EM mixtures as a fuel- Each of the designs I know of
where combustion occurred in a cylinder ended up the same way- BLAM! (fuel magazine/feed mechanism explosions, usually). The good news, some of the
inventors went on to work with air and alcohol or gasoline, if they lived through their first experiments.
There are several other designs where EM burns in a controlled fashion as a gas generator to feed hot gasses either to a turbine or a cylinder with a
piston. These have often worked better, but see Hudson Maxim's Dynamite Stories for a few REALLY good KABLAAAAAAM!!!s he experienced while trying to
turn what was essentially double base powder (Mororite) into torpedo gas generator fuel.
I do want to try a small experiment myself (properly barricaded). I have Vanadium pentoxide on hand, but am intrigued by the idea that
Potassium/Potassium sulfide/sulfate or whatever is actually formed in the described experiment might do the catalytic trick, even if only for a small
quantity at low efficiency. Tube furnaces and quartz apparatus are kind of expensive to rig up, continuous process even more so and is more for a
plant scale operation. I just need a bit of oleum here and there...
Of course, I have seen more than one very questionable to dangerous, utterly wrong and impossible home experiment for aspiring young chemists
described in a book before. Like I said- Do it for the children's sake!
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ah feck.
So it's another idea i got to to put on my 'Make It Exist' list.
List is so long i doubt i'll get much further than anti-gravity before i die, and the list is quite long.
Maybe best to put 'Longevity' to the top spot.
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3247
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
Sulfuric acid from sulfur dioxide and manganese salts (as catalyst) from oxygen in water.
Link
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bert |
Of course, I have seen more than one very questionable to dangerous, utterly wrong and impossible home experiment for aspiring young chemists
described in a book before. Like I said- Do it for the children's sake! |
Do we have a thread on that? Collecting examples of highly questionable experiments being recommended to juveniles would be amusing, and possibly even
instructive.
I recall the posting on the silicon tetrafluoride "glass gas" experiment from a 1930s popular science magazine as one such.
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
We need a thread on that! By all means, get that ball rolling.
I have to dig some books out of a storage locker for my examples, unless I get lucky with Google-
Perhaps include the various adult science teachers who fearlessly take classroom demos where angels fear to tread? The ones who send shrapnel into
the front row, or multiple students to the burn ward.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
Sound like this could also turn into a "lecture demonstration disaster" thread.
|
|
|
Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
|
|
I must lead by example!
And a really good negative example, ideally with graphic pictures is the BESTEST teaching tool.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | I must lead by example!
And a really good negative example, ideally with graphic pictures is the BESTEST teaching tool. |
Correct.
Hurry up and post some photos of stuff being blown up !
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
