NERV
Hazard to Others
Posts: 152
Registered: 22-9-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorinated
|
|
Extracting Phosphorus from P2O5.
I had the idea that if you react P2O5 in a pure Hydrogen enviroment you could get a solution of Phosphorus and H2O. The reaction would be as follows:
P2O5+5H2-----> P2+5H2O
I am not exatly an expert at chemistry, so I could be wrong. This could be an experament for thoes of you who can get P2O5.
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.
|
|
|
a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 15-9-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
|
|
It won't work. You can't reduce P with H because P will react with H and you'll get phosphine.
|
|
|
NERV
Hazard to Others
Posts: 152
Registered: 22-9-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorinated
|
|
Oh-well, I figured there would be a catch somewhere.
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.
|
|
|
Darkfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 292
Registered: 3-1-2003
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering
|
|
I had a way to extract P from RP but Iforgot my theory before i could post it. All i remeber is that iodine was used in the procedure, you guys are
smarter than me mabey you could think of the rest.
CTR
\"I love being alive and will be the best man I possibly can. I will take love wherever I find it and offer it to everyone who will take it. I
will seek knowledge from those wiser and teach those who wish to learn from me.\" Duane Allman
|
|
|
DDTea
National Hazard
Posts: 940
Registered: 25-2-2003
Location: Freedomland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Degenerate
|
|
P from RP? RP = Red Phosphorus, no? Red Phosphorus is straight P.
|
|
|
NERV
Hazard to Others
Posts: 152
Registered: 22-9-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorinated
|
|
Mabey Darkfire is talking about converting RP into WP.
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.
|
|
|
Darkfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 292
Registered: 3-1-2003
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering
|
|
Isnt Red Phosphorus p2o5, and isnt White Phosphorus elemental Phosphorus? If its not i just made a total ass of myself.
CTR
\"I love being alive and will be the best man I possibly can. I will take love wherever I find it and offer it to everyone who will take it. I
will seek knowledge from those wiser and teach those who wish to learn from me.\" Duane Allman
|
|
|
NERV
Hazard to Others
Posts: 152
Registered: 22-9-2002
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorinated
|
|
No, I am pretty sure that RP Is elemental phosphorus.
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.
|
|
|
Darkfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 292
Registered: 3-1-2003
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering
|
|
Than what the differance between wp and rp? Only reason ive broughten all this up is i remeber reading it somewhere, i gues it could have been someone
giving false information.
CTR
\"I love being alive and will be the best man I possibly can. I will take love wherever I find it and offer it to everyone who will take it. I
will seek knowledge from those wiser and teach those who wish to learn from me.\" Duane Allman
|
|
|
madscientist
National Hazard
Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
White phosphorus and red phosphorus are both forms of elemental phosphorus (called allotropes). White phosphorus is P<sub>4</sub>; red
phosphorus is P<sub>10</sub> (if I remember correctly). White phosphorus is converted into red phosphorus by exposure to ultraviolet
light; red phosphorus is converted into white phosphorus by heating until white phosphorus vapors are generated.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
|
|
|
Darkfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 292
Registered: 3-1-2003
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Wondering
|
|
Smakes forehead, i never even conciderd that...
CTR
\"I love being alive and will be the best man I possibly can. I will take love wherever I find it and offer it to everyone who will take it. I
will seek knowledge from those wiser and teach those who wish to learn from me.\" Duane Allman
|
|
|
Blackout
Harmless
Posts: 25
Registered: 26-11-2004
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
"Isnt Red Phosphorus p2o5, and isnt White Phosphorus elemental Phosphorus?"
WP & RP are both elemental P, its like graphit and diamon, both are C.
\"Si vis pacem, para bellum.\"
\"If you wish for peace, prepare for war.\"
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3253
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
At moderate temperatures with a stream of hydrogen constantly flowing over the P2O5 surface this reaction would probably actually yield phosphorus.
The reaction of hydrogen with phosphates similarly yields phosphorus. However I wouldn't waste P2O5 like that, it could probably be more easily
reduced with aluminum powder so long as the regular requirements for working with phosphorus were meant, e.g., rigorous exclusion of oxygen. The heat
of the reaction would of course volatize phosphorus as it would form so it would have to be scraped off the cold surfaces or the whole reaction vessel
could afterwards be shaken with CS2 and the CS2 removed in a sealed system leaving behind your phosphorus.
|
|
|
budullewraagh
Hazard to Others
Posts: 168
Registered: 1-8-2004
Location: new york
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aliphatic
|
|
phosphorus is produced from phosphates by using silicon dioxide and carbon at high temperatures, yielding carbon dioxide and a silicate (depending on
what your phosphate is)
X3PO4+C+SiO2-->P+CO2+X2SiO3
of course, this is phosphoric anhydride, so you could easily make a phosphate out of it by reacting it with a base, but at the same time, i bet you
could do the above reaction without the SiO2 and yield phosphorus.
P2O5+C-->CO2+P
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3253
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
That reaction is of course complicated by the fact that phosphorus pentoxide sublimes at 360C so you would probably have to resort to running 800C
P2O5 vapor over carbon @ 1000C to get a noticeable reaction.
Personally I would go for aluminothermic methods or reduction with hydrogen as mentioned in at least on patent. Aluminum might react readily with it
without provocation. Most any active metal, iron, magnesium, zinc, could probably be used, although magnesium would probably get violent, as might
aluminum.
|
|
|
JohnWW
International Hazard
Posts: 2849
Registered: 27-7-2004
Location: New Zealand
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The sublimation of P2O5 in the reduction could be avoided or reduced by using an ionic phosphate instead, especially calcium phosphate.
I doubt that using Mg or Al or Zn powder would work well, because even if stoichiometric quantities are used there would probably be some Mg3P2 or AlP
produced, with some left unreduced.
|
|
|
BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3253
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
Member Is Offline
Mood: Rock n' Roll
|
|
| Quote: | | I doubt that using Mg or Al or Zn powder would work well, because even if stoichiometric quantities are used there would probably be some Mg3P2 or AlP
produced, with some left unreduced. |
I agree, just saying that it would be a simple affair mixing the two chemicals and igniting in a tube with a one way gas release and scraping out the
phosphorus that collected in cooler parts of the tube.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Beware of the risk of phosphine being generated.
Actuall, you might do as well to deliberately add excess metal to convert the phosphate to phosphide, add acid and thermally decompose the phosphine
to give the element.
|
|
|
cyclonite4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 480
Registered: 16-11-2004
Location: is unknown
Member Is Offline
Mood: Amphoteric
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by NERV
I had the idea that if you react P2O5 in a pure Hydrogen enviroment you could get a solution of Phosphorus and H2O. The reaction would be as follows:
P2O5+5H2-----> P2+5H2O
I am not exatly an expert at chemistry, so I could be wrong. This could be an experament for thoes of you who can get P2O5. |
What do you mean by a solution of phosphorus? Isn't Phosphorus insoluble in almost all solvents?
|
|
|
guaguanco
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 26-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: heterocyclic
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by cyclonite4
What do you mean by a solution of phosphorus? Isn't Phosphorus insoluble in almost all solvents? |
No, White phosphorus is quite soluble is some solvents.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
