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Organikum
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Geopolymeres
I got recently interested into geopolymeres:
http://www.geopolymer.org/
The prices they charge are insane though. Has anybody an idea how to prepare such polymeres, in special the high-temperature resistant kind?
/ORG
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12AX7
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Wow, that could be... very useful! Rocks molded from aqueous instead of molten solution!
But what to use... can't be as simple as sodium aluminate + sodium silicate, can it?
Tim
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solo
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Here is some information.....solo
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http://www.geopolymer.org/library_papers/publications_refere...
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
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solo
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Info on geopolymers....
Property controlling influences on the generationof geopolymeric binders based on clay
Ch.Kaps, A. Buchwald
[url= http://rapidshare.de/files/1609911/Bu-Ka-Geopolymer2002.pdf.html]pdf[/url]
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
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Organikum
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I get only advertisement with this link?
This works:
http://rapidshare.de/files/1609911/Bu-Ka-Geopolymer2002.pdf....
Very good! Thanks!
[Edited on 6-5-2005 by Organikum]
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Cyrus
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That is a very interesting link...
I added 3 g of fine grog (prefired clay, hey they said to activate it somehow, I don't know how long or how hot this was fired because I just
bought it as grog) to about 120 mL of about 1.5 M NaOH.
The site was pretty vague about some stuff, but I guess I'll just let it sit there at room temp. for a few days... and then what? At that point
it will be (in all probability) a liquid with some solid grog power at the bottom, but where are the silica and alumina monomers we want for
polymerization located? In the clay at the bottom or the liquid? Colloidal silica is a clear liquid, but then again the site showed an aluminum
ladle being formed from ceramic matting and a binder that looked like clay.
I guess I'll just have to do some experimenting- I'm interested in low sodium/ potassium/ etc mixes because those metals are fluxes at high
temperatures, and would cause the geopolymer to melt. I wonder what NH4OH does....
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Madandcrazy
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I checked out the site, the link seems to be interested.
I wonder about the post of easy fine grog  in the thread.
Try the usage of sodium amide (NaNH2) in your experiments.
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Cyrus
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Well, the grog is still just sitting there at the bottom of the NaOH solution. Hmm. I guess I'll have to do some tests on it. It seems to have
turned more of a pure white color than it was originally, but that could just be my perception.
I tried putting a little of the solution on a paper towel and let it dry. It didn't seem to strengthen the towel very much.
Madandcrazy, why and how do you suggest I use sodium amide? Are you talking about geopolymers? Or are you just being mad and crazy? 
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Tacho
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This sounds interesting. Isn't there a recipe somewhere? I presume it's made of aluminum-based clay, alkali hydroxide and sodium silicate.
Somewhere on my google search someone mentioned that the mix must have very little water, however, in the www.geopolimer.org site (I could only open this link) they show ceramic fiber being impregnated with what seems to be a rather liquid mix.
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Cyrus
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I decanted all of the liquid and let the solid dry on a paper towel. It shows no strength whatsoever. 
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Madandcrazy
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It seems interesting for strength fine grog recipes within the alkalamin group .
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Organikum
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Roman cement is told to be a geopolymere. There seems to be a variation of the Mayas to, made with some plantextract.
Whilst the Roman making is wellknown - volcanic ash + CaOH, the Mayan recipe is not known to me.
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Jome
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The chinese added a small ammount of rice starch to their cement, this made the cement more resistant, perhaps this has something to do with enhancing
the polymerisation process?
http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/121291.htm
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12AX7
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No, I think that's just organic reinforcement. Roman cement was also just that, cement. Geopolymers appear to be something similar but
completely different, polymerized rather than crystallized bonding agents.
The Mayan stuff might've been along the same lines, maybe lime and such mixed with latex instead?
Tim
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sparkgap
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Maya used wet clay soil mixed with dried grass (the cellulose probably for stiffening) as cement. Quite
far-off from modern-day designer ceramics.
sparky (~_~)
"What's UTFSE? I keep hearing about it, but I can't be arsed to search for the answer..."
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Jome
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They have a bunch of chemical formulas on the site, here:
http://www.geopolymer.org/what_is_a_geopolymer/chemical_anal...
and here: http://www.geopolymer.org/what_is_a_geopolymer/geopolymeriza...
Seems like it's all about polymerizing different ratios of alumina and silica using a NaOH or KOH catalyst. The conditions however is mentioned
as being "at room temperature", and their casting of "limestone" suggests this too, though that's chemically different. from
silicic minerals.
It could probably be tested quite fast with chemically produced Al(OH)<sub>3</sub> (this should dehydrate in the process) and
SiO<Sub>2</sub>, "colloidal silicia" from Na<sub>2</sub>SiO<sub>3</sub> ("water glass" and HCl. Just add NaOH/KOH and see what happens.
EDIT - add:
Polymerisation probably occurs because of temporary formation of soluble sodium silicates and aluminates, which then together forms chains and
3D-matrixes that will not get attacked by the sodium ions....
[Edited on 8-6-2005 by Jome]
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Organikum
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| Quote: |
No, I think that's just organic reinforcement. Roman cement was also just that, cement.
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Bullshit. Don´t post statements like this when you don´t have a clue.
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12AX7
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Organikum
Bullshit. Don´t post statements like this when you don´t have a clue. |
Well, I can just as well say fuck you too, but I will stick to the gracious side and ask, please provide cites on roman cement chemistry? For that
matter I'm curious what exactly is in it, too.
Tim
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Jome
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It would not work as reinforcement, glutionous rice is not at all stronger than concrete, in itself it's more like porridge/glue. So it must
work in another way than simpy reinforcing the cement like glass fiber is used today.
Just got home from buying 5L of hydrochloric, im going to start making Al(OH)<sub>3</sub> soon.
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12AX7
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
For that matter I'm curious what exactly is in it, too.
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Interesting:
http://www.geopolymer.org/science_archaeology/roman_cement_c...
| Quote: | | Civil infrastructures, especially works related to water storage (cisterns, aqueducts) required a high-performance material and a special technology.
The technology of this first Roman cement analogue was known under the generic technical term of Opus Signinum obtained by blending crushed and sieved
ceramic, in Latin testa, with lime. According to the Roman author Plinius (Natural History, Book 35, 165), this technology was recognized as:
"..one of the most spectacular inventions of mankind.." The ingredient testa is a special ceramic powder from calcined kaolinitic clay
(alumino-silicate oxide) and therefore identical to the KANDOXI ingredient in modern geopolymeric cements. We performed 29 Si and 27 Al NMR
Spectroscopy on Opus Signinum samples, dating to the 2nd Century A.D. There spectra are identical to those of modern GEOCISTEM Geopolymeric cements.
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Appears to be calcined clay required, then...
So does that mean, besides plain quicklime, portland was the first "cement" as such discovered?
Tim
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Nerro
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Why do they call these polymers "geo"-polymers? "lithopolymers" makes much more sense.
Such a material might be extremely usefull for creating our own furnaces or other interesting things.
How about making a block of this material with a certain percentage of some alkali resistant material that readily dissolves in acids. If carefully
mixed and not to fine (the metal powder that is) the metal powder might be removed with hydrochloric acid after polymerisation so as to create a
superporous structure that may be used as a catalyst-holder for things such as H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> production or other
contact catalysations.
Just a thought. (probably noobish but hell).
PS. Just thought of this. Sn becomes brittle at low temperatures. Maybe that property can be used too...
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
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courtesy of bash
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12AX7
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You could add say, CaCO3 chips. Wax or styrofoam bits if it doesn't need/make too much curing heat. No idea how you prevent them from being
encapsulated though.
Tim
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Nerro
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Using big particles and lots of them i guess.
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
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Jome
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I'm having a hell trying to remove water from the SiO2 and Al(OH)3 I've made just for this experiment. I used Na2SiO3+2HCl for the silicia
and Al+KOH---> KAl(OH)4+HCl-->Al(OH)3 for the aluminium hydroxide.
They´re just that partickle size that gets STUCK in the filter paper and nothing happens, no fluid is dripping out. Ever! What could I do?
Sadly I dont have any fancy-vacuum filtration device.
Im planning to use Al(OH)3 and SiO2 to bind together fine clay-particles to make artificial rock, with the aid of a little KOH or NaOH.
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Nerro
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Would waterglass dehydrate Al(OH)<sub>3</sub> maybe? Because if it does that would be an ideal solution. Just make
Al(OH)<sub>3</sub> and dry it and add it to waterglass, hopefully...
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
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