Edward Elric
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Baking soda and gatorade... good sport drink?
I was watching law and order and heard that sodium bicarbonate and gatorade could be mixed together and given to horses to enhance performance..
i believe it was... not tire out as quickly..
I don't know much about horse physiology and anatomy, but i'm wondering if the same concept applies to humans. I weightlift and this looks
like a very interesting alternative to steroids.
I do know that baking soda is an akylide. meaning it would probably bring down the pH level of my human blood decreasing energy..
is there a difference between horse pH blood level and human?
whatcha guys know bout this stuff??
edit: it also increases lactyc acid in the horses.
[Edited on 5-5-2005 by Edward Elric]
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Pyrovus
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The baking soda won't make any difference as far as blood pH is concerned, as there is no way for it to get into the bloodstream (it will be
destroyed by the hydrochloric acid in the stomach: HCl + NaHCO3 -> NaCl + H2O + CO2). So the only effect it will have is to increase your salt
levels - any beneficial effect from drinking the mixture will be entirely due to the gatorade. The idea of drinking alkalais to alter blood pH was the
basis of a scam a couple of years ago in Aust, with some guy marketing this stuff called "Unique Water", which is just basically tap water
with a tiny amount of added magnesium bicarbonate (his site is www.uniquewater.com.au). He was able to make $1.5 million from the gullible public after a couple of so-called current affairs shows provided him
with free advertising (which really demonstrated the hypocrisy of these shows - they go around praising themselves at how great they are at chasing
con-artists in one episode, and next episode they go about helping another con artist make millions [/rant]).
So, I'd take any such claims with a grain of salt
Never accept that which can be changed.
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Edward Elric
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i'm trying to find out more about it in terms of perfomance but thanks about telling me how it converts to water, salt, and carbon dioxide.
i read more from here.
But it didn't explain really the process good enough for me. -needs it dummied down-
and i was also wondering about how much you take before you workout (weightlift for 45 mins constant) and how long it would stay in the body. also how
much is too much?
if i remember correctly, doping has to do with putting it into your body with a needle.
not something i would want to do because i hate needles. always having my thyroid checked and stuff..
[Edited on 5-5-2005 by Edward Elric]
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BromicAcid
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Initially my thoughts on the matter were similar to what it says in the page you linked to. When we excercise the amount of acid in our body,
specifically lactic acid increases which can lead to the burning we experience and acidosis. Therefore logically if we could increse the pH of our
blood it would neutralize some of that acid and allow us to function at a higher level of energy longer.
But then I thought of all the buffers in our body and how good they work at keeping our pH right where it belongs. Plus the bicarb would be dropping
right into a pit of HCl, so I figured not much would make it to any type of internal effect, except the sodium and chloride that is, sodium chloride
being added to gator aid to increase the 'electolyte' level and increase performance, so I figured any possible boon granted by this mixture
would be from the increased electrolyte concentration of this already electrolyte rich drink.
Being that the paper you linked to used Calcium carbonate as the placebo and sodium bicarbonate as the comparison I really would say that my theory on
the increased electrolyte count would be the cause, being that calcium carbonate dropped into acid is going to do the same thing as NaHCO3 with the
exception that you end up with CaCl2.
Never the less the increase in perfornace is only a precent or two from whatever the cause. The 'loading' of the athlete is done over a
period of two hours before the work out so it is probably just the bicarb dissolve in some sort of drink (.3g / kg body weight) and this would just be
sipped on for two hours before working out. Performance increase was the same with greater doese so there is no need to go to higher levels.
It really only seems to work well if you push yourself to maxium oxygen consumption, I guess that would mean it makes the most impact once your body
starts to really work anerobically.
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chemoleo
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Well part of physical exhaustion is of course derived from sweating - specifically lots of ions are sweated out. Sweat tasts salty remember? To
replenish this, people (horses) drink ionising drinks...
Yes, there is no way the high pH substance can enter your blood stream and muscle cells. Even injecting it wouldnt work, it'd still have to enter
the cells, and it'd probably kill you first regardless (imagine what a sudden pH drop would do to brain tissue  )
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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Esplosivo
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If the pH of the blood is increased it could cause alkalosis (probably resulting in a decreased release of oxygen at the tissues since the effect of
the Bohr shift is removed).
Regarding the brain, I would thin that the CSF (cerebro-spinal fluid - the fluid which baths the nervous tissue) salt/pH conc. would be fairly
constant, due to the blood-brain barrier.
Theory guides, experiment decides.
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chemoleo
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True there's the blood brain barrier of course.
Still. High pH is bound to screw up essential blood proteins (denaturation, unfolding, loss of function, aggregation, plaques) and blood cells, i.e.
erythrocytes. Any pH-sensitive proteins will lose their function. And that is likely to be deadly.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
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sparkgap
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With the carbonate buffer protecting the bloodstream and phosphate buffer protecting the kidneys, there is no appreciable effect of baking soda
alkalizing your blood. And, as mentioned previously, any basic stuff thus ingested will be promptly neutralized by HCl in the stomach.
In any case, trying to tamper with the pH of a normally functioning body is usually a very bad idea. Chemoleo and Esplosivo already mentioned the
terrors that can happen.
Oh, and if that formulation does increase lactate production in muscle like you mention, that would cause the horses to have cramps (unwanted muscular
contractions); hence bad for their performance.
sparky (^_^)
P.S. And if hypertension runs in your family, you might want to reconsider the benefits of adding baking soda to your drink.
"What's UTFSE? I keep hearing about it, but I can't be arsed to search for the answer..."
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evil_lurker
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Gatorade was designed by a college chemistry class for their football team if, I
am correct.
Gatorade already contains quite a bit of salt, and if you added an excess amount in any form of sodium it might actually decrease performance.
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vulture
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I do know that baking soda is an akylide. meaning it would probably bring down the pH level of my human blood decreasing energy..
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You deserve a major bitchslap for this. First of all "akylide" or whatever word you are fabricating, does not exist. Sodium bicarbonate is
alkaline in solution which means it RAISES the pH level.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Pyridinium
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Old thread I know, but I thought I'd add: There are ways to deliver bicarbonate orally so it survives the stomach acid, but they involve
microencapsulation, coatings, etc.
Also, a couple posters mentioned the buffering system of the blood. It's true, there's buffering... but buffered systems have a finite
capacity which can be overwhelmed. Hence, alkalosis / acidosis.
A rapid influx of Na or K ions into the bloodstream could probably upset cellular ion channel mechanisms and make you... dead.
Did anyone here ever read the story of Mark Tatum, who got mucormycosis? Invasive fungi and other opportunistic pathogens can take hold if the blood
pH is off. He had acidosis from diabetes.
Edit: Another thing I wanted to mention, bicarbonate will survive stomach acid if there's enough of it present. Bicarbonate loading does have
definite effects, such as increasing absorption of certain molecules.
I also did read that too much ingested bicarbonate can indeed produce blood alkalosis. Perhaps not directly; it may be via shifting the pH of
gastric juice to where other changes take place. I'd have to do more reading. This is actually a very interesting topic.
[Edited on 17-6-2005 by Pyridinium]
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Archimede
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Maybe neutralizing part of the HCl with the baking soda makes the gatorade more efficent / better absorbed by the organism or something like that?
I have not read any answer about the original post mentioning this as an alternative to steroids. Ill like to see what the others think because I
always had the idea that steroids are mainly used to increase muscolar mass and not to improve efficiency in aerobic workout.
[Edited on 28-6-2005 by Archimede]
[Edited on 28-6-2005 by Archimede]
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hAzzBEEn
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.. is it real?
I also saw the Law & Order episode the original poster (Edward Elric) saw. IIRC, they did refer to lactic acid and said the horse
wouldn't feel as tired and could perfrom at its maximum level for longer without realizing it.
They busted a guy for "doping" his race horses. They guy had signed an agreement with the race-track allowing his vehicle to be searched.
The cops checked his trunk and found a garden hose and a big container of sodium bicarbonate. In the show, this was a common procedure for cheating
and had already been discussed.
Is this actually used for cheating in a horse race, or was it fabricated for the television program?
--hAzzBEEn--
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monkeyboy
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wether or not a material is acidic or not as it enters the GI tract is irrelivant, acidity is easily taken care of and adjusted by the cardiovascular
system (CO2), what ultimatly effects the blood pH is the ASH that is left behind after passing through the proximal GI tract. Im pretty certain that
bakeing soda (as well as alot of your acidic fruit!) leaves an alkaline residue.
You can test your urine with pH strips, I can poke around and find it somewhere, but I believe a urine pH of ~7.4 is optimal- which is a good
indicator of blood pH.
I have also heard of testing saliva pH, but that is more or less testing for effects of emotional imbalances on metabolism.
If you want me to look around and find this info, let me know- right now, Ive got studying to do!
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gorilla
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Anaerobic Respiration
The thing that limits muscle performance and the thing that 'burns' during anaerobic exercise is hydrogen ion concentration in the muscle.
Consuming pH buffers such as bicarbonates and citrates do increase blood alkalinity and can help to buffer hydrogen ion concentration in muscles. The
affect is strongest in less highly trained people - the superfit already have highly adapted buffer systems.
With sodium bicarbonate, you need to consume between 0.3 and 0.4 g per kilo body weight 1 to 2 hours before the event.
This might knock a few seconds off your 800 m time. It won't make any difference to pumping iron in the gmn.
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