CHRIS25
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Ferro Fluid surfactant
Slight problem with acquiring TetraMethylAmmonium Hydroxide. Looking for a surfactant and I was wondering if vegetable oil would suffice? It is for
making the magnetite particles in ferrofluid of equal charge so that they repel.
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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Steam
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Some common surfactants for ferro fluid are Citric acid and oleic acid.
Remember that the surfactant must be soluble in the solvent!
I would recommend using a solution of ferric chloride and ammonia. Then add kerosene as an oil
Personally I have made ferro fluid from Magnetic ink developer (MICR) along with kerosene and oleic acid.
DISCLAIMER: The information in this post is provided for general informational purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction.
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counsel on any subject matter. No reader of this post should act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in, or accessible
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thesmug
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Steam is exactly right. I've made it with oleic acid and it worked perfectly. Where did you see that suggested tetramethylammonium hydroxide!? That's
a super obscure chemical that I've never seen used for this before, since oleic acid works well for this and is extremely easy to get.
Also, I suggest using a mixture of iron(II) chloride and iron(III) chloride when making your ferrofluid, that way you get almost completely
iron(II,III) oxide.
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CHRIS25
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Here is the link where I found the information. Thankyou for the tip about citric and oleic acid. I wonder if the amount of surfactant with these
would be approximately the same as the video instruction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPwIeoMFjJE
I know I will need to experiment but I wish to understand how the acid works on the Iron particles, what actually needs to occur to the molecules. If
you have any references that I may turn to I would be pleased to read them. thankyou for your help.
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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thesmug
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Another SciMad user MrHomescientist has this video which should help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlQw9dfexBQ
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CHRIS25
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Hi, I think that the instructions from the TechNyou video solve some of the problems that this guy encountered. Although his video was very good as
well. I appreciate the pointer. I thought your American Kerosene was Petrol till I double checked, it is Paraffin where I come from. Good that I
checked, I mean you call petrol gas and we call gas something that heats houses and food. Strange vocab there in USA....
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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blogfast25
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Oleic acid is fine, worked OK for me, even with homemade oleic acid.
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CHRIS25
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Did you make it according to wikpedia's method?
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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blogfast25
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Saponification of olive oil with KOH, followed by hydrolysis of the soap with HCl. Separate out the crude oleic acid (it will contain other fatty
acids too).
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CHRIS25
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Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  |
Saponification of olive oil with KOH, followed by hydrolysis of the soap with HCl. Separate out the crude oleic acid (it will contain other fatty
acids too). |
My wife makes soap regularly, so you make saop with olive oil (Pecan oil has twice as much acid in it so this might be fun). I am sure that when you
make soap this is actually hydrolysis in the first place? Why the HCl for a hydrolysis which has already taken place? I am only asking because I
would like to do this instead of buying it, if I can.
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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deltaH
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There is a 'high oleic' sunflower oil available in parts of the world. It's triolein component is generally rated above 80%
Expanding on what blogfast25 suggested, making soap using excess water (making slimes) and then acidifying/neutralising and
simultaneously salting out the fatty acids with HCl sounds like a simple and good route to oleic acid! Should form two liquid phases. The organic
layer should be rich in oleic acid if your starting oil was high in triolein.
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by deltaH]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25 | | My wife makes soap regularly, so you make saop with olive oil (Pecan oil has twice as much acid in it so this might be fun). I am sure that when you
make soap this is actually hydrolysis in the first place? Why the HCl for a hydrolysis which has already taken place? I am only asking because I
would like to do this instead of buying it, if I can. |
The saponification is the hydrolysis of the triglyceride (the oil) to glycerine and soap (the K salts of the fatty acids).
To obtain the fatty acids, another hydrolysis is performed:
'Koleate' + HCl (in water) === > KCl (solution) + Oleic acid (insoluble in water)
Separating and drying yields crude oleic acid (containing also minor constituent fatty acids).
"Pecan oil has twice as much acid in it so this might be fun"
.... doesn't make much sense: all vegetable oils are triglycerides, so each mol of oil contains three mol of fatty acid. Now since as some fatty acids
are much longer than others the total fatty acid content in w% does vary from one oil to another. So Pecan oil has three times the amount of fatty
acid with respect to which other oil?
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by blogfast25]
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CHRIS25
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Delta thankyou, I read about that sunflower oil, can not get it here though.
Blogfast I know you are more knowledgeable than me, so I appreciate the learning, I sourced the above infor mation from wikpedia and found other sites
that suggested the following:
Triglycerides of oleic acid compose the majority of olive oil, although there may be less than 2.0% as free acid in the virgin olive oil, with higher
concentrations making the olive oil inedible.[citation needed] It also makes up 59-75% of pecan oil,[3] 61% of canola oil,[4] 36-67% of peanut oil,[5]
60% of macadamia oil, 20-85% of sunflower oil (the latter in the high oleic variant),[6] 15-20% of grape seed oil, sea buckthorn oil, and sesame
oil,[2] and 14% of poppyseed oil.[7] It is abundantly present in many animal fats, constituting 37 to 56% of chicken and turkey fat[8] and 44 to 47%
of lard.
No doubt I may well be misunderstanding the chemistry here but I know next to nothing about fatty acids and organic chemistry Thankyou for the
enlightenment by the way about the hydrolysis.
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by CHRIS25]
you introduced a new word, Koleate. Potassium oleate, never heard of it but it is the salt of oleic acid so where does the potassium come from? is
this from the potassium hydroxide that used in making the first stage of the soap?
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by CHRIS25]
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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Steam
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tetramethylammonium hydroxide is a phase transfer catalyst. n-methylammonium might work. I have some tertbutylammonium hexaflorophosphate which I have
used for organic electrochemistry, but it is pricey so I am not going to use it for ferro fluid experiment.
If you want to try it with the n-methylammonium go ahead! You might have some interesting results for methylammonium is non polar where as the
hydroxide is. This by definition is a surfactant.
The only problem is that the methyl groups are not very long so it might not be a very good surfactant. n-butylammonium or n-pentylammonium would be
better options!
DISCLAIMER: The information in this post is provided for general informational purposes only and may not reflect the current law in your jurisdiction.
No information contained in this post should be construed as legal advice from the individual author, nor is it intended to be a substitute for legal
counsel on any subject matter. No reader of this post should act or refrain from acting on the basis of any information included in, or accessible
through, this post without seeking the appropriate legal or other professional advice on the particular facts and circumstances at issue from a lawyer
licensed in the recipient’s state, country or other appropriate licensing jurisdiction.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25 | you introduced a new word, Koleate. Potassium oleate, never heard of it but it is the salt of oleic acid so where does the potassium come from? is
this from the potassium hydroxide that used in making the first stage of the soap?
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by CHRIS25] |
Sorry, 'Koleate' isn't really a word, it's clumsy, personal vernacular for potassium oleate, the potassium salt of oleic acid.
The oils have essentially the following structure:
CH<sub>2</sub>OOCR
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CH-OOCR'
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CH<sub>2</sub>OOCR"
Where R, R' and R" are hydrocarbon groups of the different fatty acids.
The left hand (vertical) chain is essentially glycerine (glycerol). The fatty acids are bound to it by ester bonds (the OOC group). When treated with
KOH, the glycerine is 'liberated' by de-esterification (aka alkaline hydrolysis) and the salts of the fatty acids form: KOOCR. Salts of fatty acids
are called soaps because old fashioned soaps are sodium or potassium salts of fatty acids.
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by blogfast25]
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CHRIS25
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Oh that's clear, thankyou. Thankyou for your insight Blogfast.
HI Steam, well I'll be staying clear of those very long words no experience at
all in that sort of thing. Oleic acid will be the way I go but am glad for your comments.
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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CHRIS25
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My only question now is how do I know how much HCl to add. Even though I begin with a known amount of Olive oil and based on SAP values and KOH have
an exact quantity of water, I now have produced an unknown amount of potassium oleate. I habe all the molecular weights sorted but unless I have a
molecular weight for olive oil I will not know how many moles of CH(CH2)7CH=CH(CH2)7COOK I have produced which means I will not know how much HCl at
12M to add, is there such a thing as too much? I know too little would mean that I would fall short of optimum production but must there be exactness
here?
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by CHRIS25]
[Edited on 6-4-2014 by CHRIS25]
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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thesmug
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You do know you can delete posts in the edit screen?
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CHRIS25
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Actually, no but now I do.
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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