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gregxy
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OTC H2SO4 and NaOH are gone...
I went to the local Home Depot this weekend to look for NaOH in the form of Red Devil lye. I could not find any. Also gone were all the H2SO4 based
drain openers (they used to have several brands). I also looked at Orchard Hardware but did not see the NaOH or H2SO4 there either. I don't know
what happened to them, but if you see them it may be a good time to stock up. (I'm in the USA).
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UnintentionalChaos
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I haven't had any problems lately, though I live in northeastern US. All the H2SO4 drain cleaners available locally are horrid
black crap anyway. Dudadiesel ends up costing about the same amount if you order enough and the stuff comes in fairly clean. I did titrate his
supposed >90% KOH at 88% though, but it hasn't been an issue.
Department of Redundancy Department - Now with paperwork!
'In organic synthesis, we call decomposition products "crap", however this is not a IUPAC approved nomenclature.' -Nicodem
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Zyklon-A
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I'm going to go to Home Depot today, ever since I've looked, they have never had any sulfuric acid but they do have sodium hydroxide last I checked...
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gregxy
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There are still plenty of drain openers containing NaOH,
but few with crystals and none that are just lye (as far as
I can tell from the package).
For opening drains the acid kind was the only one that
ever worked for me. Most clogs are made up of organic
material and hard water deposits (calcium carbonate).
Acid does a much better job on those.
It's also annoying that few products list the ingredients.
I was looking for paint stripper with CH2Cl2, and there
were 5 or 6 brands, but none listed what was in them.
I suppose there is some code on the can that you can look
up to find the MSDS, but its awkward to do in the store.
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Zyklon-A
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I just got back from Home Depot, and they still had NaOH crystals, (I bought some) they are contaminated with a dye of some sort, and some unknown
metal shavings, no idea why...
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cyanureeves
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ace hardware came back to our town in a joint business with a local supermarket and along with ace hardware came rooto sulfuric acid and liquid fire
sulfuric acid and rooto 100%hydroxide AND ammonium hydroxide.i bought two gallons of acid right away and every two weeks i would buy two bottles of
hydroxide.i love ace and i'm thinking of buying liquid fire just for the looks of the bottle.the black sulfuric acid made pretty clean nitric acid
when i distilled potassium nitrate and the potassium sulphate or bisulphate left behind was white as snow with no traces of anything black.
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elementcollector1
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Those metal shavings are aluminum, by the way. No clue on how to get rid of them other than manual sorting...
I buy all my stuff from McLendon's (HCl, H2SO4, NaOH, CuSO4, CaCl2, NH4OH, and there's some H2O2 that's supposed to be concentrated but I've never
bought it to check). Handy little store.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Zyklon-A
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How are aluminum shavings in there, since it's amphoteric. Or is that the point? To keep it from reacting with potential aluminum pipes in drains.
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Mr_Magnesium
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H2SO4 is annoying to get in Aus.
Pool shop sells 15L for 33dollars at 20%~ + 15 drum deposit.
It starts off a pristine white but when you concentrate it, it goes from yellow to this disgusting black stuff like the drain cleaners. Gotta use H2O2
to make it look respectable.
The amount of time it takes to concentrate 15L is ridiculous for a few litres.
I thought about asking a few local members to pool together and get a 20L drum of 98% sulfuric and share that, which is a lot cheaper and much more
convenient .
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TheChemiKid
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Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  | | ace hardware came back to our town in a joint business with a local supermarket and along with ace hardware came rooto sulfuric acid and liquid fire
sulfuric acid and rooto 100%hydroxide AND ammonium hydroxide.i bought two gallons of acid right away and every two weeks i would buy two bottles of
hydroxide.i love ace and i'm thinking of buying liquid fire just for the looks of the bottle.the black sulfuric acid made pretty clean nitric acid
when i distilled potassium nitrate and the potassium sulphate or bisulphate left behind was white as snow with no traces of anything black.
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I have a local ace. Without it, I would be without some of my best chemicals. The people there know me well, so customer service is amazing. I buy
CaCl2, HCl, CuSO4, H2SO4, MeOH, EtOH, iPrOH, (CH3)2CO,
CH3COC2H5, C6H5CH3, C6H4(CH3)2,
C6H4Cl2, NH4OH, Ca(OCl)2, TCCA, and more from there, no questions asked.
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
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Oscilllator
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@Mr_Magnesium: Try the plumbing supplies co-op for H2SO4. I buy mine there and it is completely clear and as far as I can tell, 98%. Its pretty
expensive though, $30+ for 1L.
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turd
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effervescent_tablet
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Mesa
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mr_Magnesium |
I thought about asking a few local members to pool together and get a 20L drum of 98% sulfuric and share that, which is a lot cheaper and much more
convenient . |
I think a lot of Aussie members(myself included) would be up for that.
@gregxy: The drain cleaners that have aluminium chips in them are usually a mix of NaOH and NaNO3 from my experience.
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Zyklon-A
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@Mesa, the drain cleaner that I bought does not have any NaNO3, at least according to the ingredients listed.
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Praxichys
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ACE is the Place
| Quote: Originally posted by TheChemiKid |
I have a local ace. Without it, I would be without some of my best chemicals. The people there know me well, so customer service is amazing. I buy
CaCl2, HCl, CuSO4, H2SO4, MeOH, EtOH, iPrOH, (CH3)2CO,
CH3COC2H5, C6H5CH3, C6H4(CH3)2,
C6H4Cl2, NH4OH, Ca(OCl)2, TCCA, and more from there, no questions asked.
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I too have a local ACE. Don't forget:
KNO3 (stump remover)
Na2S2O5 (stump remover)
NaHSO4 (Pool pH down)
Na2CO3 (Pool pH up)
CH2Cl2 (Paint stripper)
H3PO4 (Deck cleaner, rust remover)
NaCl (Salt for ice melting)
KCl (Water softener salt)
(NH3)2CO (46-00-00 urea fertilizer)
CaSO4·½H2O (Plaster of paris)
MgSO4·7H2O (Epsom salt)
NaBr (Spa brominator)
H3NSO3 (Sulfamic acid tile haze cleaner)
If you include NaOH and H2SO4, that is 30 common and extremely useful reagents all under one roof. There is also all
the stuff with non-chemical usefulness like sand for sand baths and cat litter to help with lab spills, plus buckets and other containers, disposable
stirring impliments, safety goggles, face shields, gloves, and other PPE... ACE is a lab supply in disguise.
ACO Hardware is also good. I think they might be local to Michigan but they have about the same stuff.
| Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves | | the black sulfuric acid made pretty clean nitric acid when i distilled potassium nitrate and the potassium sulphate or bisulphate left behind was
white as snow with no traces of anything black. |
Naturally. Nitric acid is an oxidizing acid, especially at elevated temperatures. It acts much in the same way hydrogen peroxide does, oxidizing
carbonized organic impurities in the acid to mostly CO2 and water. I frequently save "dirty" sulfuric acid for this purpose.
[Edited on 11-2-2014 by Praxichys]
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Mesa
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb | | @Mesa, the drain cleaner that I bought does not have any NaNO3, at least according to the ingredients listed. |
Does it have aluminium chips in it?
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Zyklon-A
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Yes, it has Al chips.
[Edited on 11-2-2014 by Zyklonb]
Here is the link to the exact product that I have.
https://www.whatsinsidescjohnson.com/en-us/products-by-brand...
I guess it does have sodium nitrate.... On the container it just said "stabilizer".
[Edited on 11-2-2014 by Zyklonb]
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Praxichys
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Another quick note: ZEP "Crystal Heat" drain opener powder (Home Depot) containing sodium hydroxide, sodium nitrate, and aluminum shavings was easily
classified using the mesh from a microwave oven door. The nitrate prills are far bigger than the hydroxide, which falls through the mesh. The screen
retains most of the aluminum as well, but some manual sorting is needed to complete the job.
Granted, there is still nitrate contaminating the hydroxide, but the NaOH is easily over 90% after the sorting process. I used to use this method
until I found "Red Devil" at ACE.
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elementcollector1
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90% by what? Usually NaOH solid prills are about 88 or so due to water absorption, and go down from there.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Praxichys
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90% by estimation of NaNO3 prill count to NaOH prill count in the final product. Certainly not even close to 90% pure NaOH by any means,
especially considering both starting products were technical grade at best. Apologies for being unclear.
I found this "good enough" for many experiments that can tolerate poor quality NaOH, like making sodium silicate, etching glass, scrubbing
CO2, the test tube silicide/silane experiment, etc.
EDIT: It should also be noted that the nitrate/hydroxide mix melts into an extremely corrosive liquid that dissolves pretty much all organic matter,
glass, and some metals.
[Edited on 11-2-2014 by Praxichys]
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*FWOOSH*
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I love my local Ace store
I could wander through those kinds of hardware stores for hours and just imagine everything I could do with all the cool stuff (chemical and
otherwise) in there.
I actually used to live a couple miles from the Rooto headquarters in MI, always thought it was kinda neat that one of the only manufacturers of OTC
pure H2SO4(conc) and NaOH was so close by.
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zig
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Got any mom n pop hardware stores you could visit gregxy? I've recently had a similar problem with big hardware chains. First they took my toluene,
then they took my NaOH, then the came for my xylene.
Turns out our local little hardware supply practices no such bullshit!
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and vapor, soot and flame,
poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that I may die if I were to change places with the Persian king."
-Johann Joachim Becher
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alexleyenda
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb | | How are aluminum shavings in there, since it's amphoteric. Or is that the point? To keep it from reacting with potential aluminum pipes in drains.
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The attack of NaOH on aluminium is very exothermic (more than it's dissolution in water) and happens only once it is in contact with water, the
shavings are probably here to increase the heat --> the speed of reactions --> the efficiency of the NaOH based drain cleaner.
The only way I found to avoid them and all the other craps they put sometime in the drain cleaners is to look for NaOH cristals as "cleaning agent".
Look in small hardwares stores, not multinationals like home depot.
For H2SO4, I can get 20L of 35% battery grade for 30$ at my car pieces seller. It is clear and I have never seen any sign of contamination. Boiling it
down can give you 4-5 L of conc. H2SO4. It can be very dangerous however, it splatters a lot and gives off fumes. Make sure you can stop the hot plate
in case of problem without going near your flask/Beaker.
I'm in Canada, but you can probably find roughly the same things wherever you live.
[Edited on 12-2-2014 by alexleyenda]
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Praxichys
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I stopped getting things at Home Depot because they stopped selling concentrated sulfuric acid, then NaOH, then toluene, then xylene, and recently
methyl ethyl ketone. However, they seem to have replaced MEK with ethyl acetate, which could be useful. I also think they are phasing out potassium
nitrate stump remover with the metabisulfite variety, and naphthalene moth balls with the p-dichlorobenzene kind.
I think the bigger stores are afraid of their public image. A small chain is much more concerned about money than looking "environmentally
responsible" in the public eye. Also, the bigger stores have a lot more to lose if someone is injured by one of their products. I'm sure they have a
legal department which does nothing all day but sit around and think of what could go wrong and how to prevent it.
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MrHomeScientist
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Surprised nobody's mentioned this yet, but the main reason for including Al chips in drain opener is that its reaction with NaOH produces hydrogen
bubbles which agitate and help break up clogs. Turd alluded to it, but I figured I'd state it outright in case people didn't make the connection.
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