deltaH
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Extreme balloon height with hydride anionic gas?
I have this crazy idea that goes something like this:
You fill a balloon with hydrogen gas and tether it to the ground. You then run a rudimentary nickel thermionic emitter within the balloon’s interior
(nickel coil heated white hot by an electric current and strongly negatively biased) for some time to generate hydride anions in the gas mixed in with
the neutral hydrogen. Excess heat is dissipated by the wall of the balloon due to hydrogen’s excellent thermal conductivity.
Afterwards, you set the balloon adrift near either magnetic north or south. The payload is fitted with some means to vent hydrogen from the balloon in
a controlled manner as the pressure drops to prevent the balloon from rupturing, but importantly, this vent has some kind of charged screening
mechanism to hold back the negatively charged hydride anions while letting the neutral hydrogen pass through.
Over the magnetic north or south pole, earth’s magnetic field lines are concentrated and so the balloon experiences a force as a charged object in a
magnetic field (due to the super light and charged hydride ions which now dominate its contents). As the balloon climbs to very high altitude, the air
pressure drops strongly and so too does drag causing the balloon to increase its velocity. As the balloons radial velocity climbs, so too does its
altitude and so the balloon spirals upwards to greater and greater heights. Could one potentially reach the ionosphere with such a balloon or even
beyond?
Probably a dumb idea because of multiple fatal physics flaws, but a fun thought experiment, no?
Thanks, NVT
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Nicodem
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Thread Moved
1-10-2013 at 05:48 |
Nicodem
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So, you want a baloon filled with anionic particles in the gas phase and in the absence of couterions?
Not even writers of science fiction dare to resort to such fantasy constructs.
For the beginning, I suggest you to read about the Coulomb's law. Maybe then you will grasp the idea of what magnitude of force it takes to keep 1 g
of charged hydrogen atoms separated 1 m from the opposite charge.
PS: Welcome to the forum, but please make sure you read the forum guidelines. When opening threads without references, please do so in the Beginnings
section. For example, how is anybody going to know what do you mean by "rudimentary nickel thermionic emitter" if you don't provide a reference?
Besides it would do you good to read about it yourself, as you seem to believe a negative charge there is created without charge separation.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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deltaH
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Hi Nicodem,
A thermionic emitter in the classical sense emits electrons, the positive charge left behind by this emission from a hot metal is quenched by fresh
electrons supplied by whatever is supplying the negative bias. Thermionic emitters are named such in part because they apply in the general case and
can be used to emit ions (besides for electrons). In this case, my thinking was that on the surface of hot nickel, hydrogen would be dissociated to
surface hydride species (bound atomic hydrogen H*) then due to the high temperature and a negative bias, these bound surface atomic hydrogen can be
'boiled off' as their negative anion, instead of just the usual electrons being ejected off.
Are you saying that the number of hydride ions that one could generate in neutral hydrogen thus would be insignificant?
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watson.fawkes
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The force from a magnetic field is always
orthogonal to the field. The force from a vertical magnetic field (approximating the earth's poles) is parallel to the ground, providing no lift.
And if you're after a charged object, beaming electrons out directly is far easier.
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Nicodem
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Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  | | A thermionic emitter in the classical sense emits electrons, the positive charge left behind by this emission from a hot metal is quenched by fresh
electrons supplied by whatever is supplying the negative bias. |
In the case of charges, there is no such thing as "supplied by whatever". The charge that is emitted needs to come from somewhere and given that you
start from a neutral system, the amount of negatively charged particles emitted need to be compensated by a potential that keeps the positive
particles apart (see Coulomb's law). Charged particles are not just created from nothing. They are created by the charge separation. For example, a
molecule can dissociate into a cation and an anion, an atom can be ionize into a cation and an electron, a neutron can decompose to a proton and an
electron, etc., but you can't create a negative charge from nothing unless you create it together with a equal positive charge.
Besides, charged particles in the gas phase are unstabilized and can fly wherever they want to and deposit the charge on whatever can accept it.
| Quote: | | Are you saying that the number of hydride ions that one could generate in neutral hydrogen thus would be insignificant? |
Insignificant is the correct word. Minuscule amounts of unbalanced anions is already enough to spark a lightning. Micrograms of confined charged
particles should be enough to cause a huge explosion. And you talk about a baloon, which would be kilograms!
The density of hydrogen is already only about 7% of the air's density. It makes no sense to use any complicated system to gain a few more % of lift
force.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | And if you're after a charged object, beaming electrons out directly is far easier. |
I am after generating hydride anions in the gas phase, not cations.
| Quote: | | The force from a vertical magnetic field (approximating the earth's poles) is parallel to the ground, providing no lift |
Does an orbiting object not orbit higher and higher if you accelerate it?
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Nicodem
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: | | The force from a vertical magnetic field (approximating the earth's poles) is parallel to the ground, providing no lift |
Does an orbiting object not orbit higher and higher if you accelerate it? |
But there is no acceleration in what you describe. A stationary charged particle does not accelerate in a homogeneous magnetic field, like the field
near the poles. Only if the particle moves through the magnetic field, an orthogonal force acts on it. Small particles always move due to thermal energy, but objects like baloon don't move unless something pushes them
(and they obey the Newton laws).
This means that an charged object moving from west to east (or opposite), somewhere near the equator, for example, would feel the acceleration in the
upward or downward direction, by an equal deacceleration in the west/east direction. Therefore, the momentum would not be increasing.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | The charge that is emitted needs to come from somewhere and given that you start from a neutral system, the amount of negatively charged particles
emitted need to be compensated by a potential that keeps the positive particles apart (see Coulomb's law). Charged particles are not just created from
nothing. |
I am puzzled by this argument. Thermionic emitters have been used for over a hundred years now to generate charged beams of ions. The posative charge
created on the metal by the removal of charge cause by either electrons being ejected or the special case of anions, is quenched by the power supply
that maintains the negative bias. Once ejected, these anions are repelled by cathode (the hot metal from which it was ejected and kept at a negative
bias).
Now as far as the charge leaking goes, it's important to remember what we are dealing with. A free gas phase hydride anion is a relatively stable
'animal'. It's 1s shell is complete and the electron is bound. The only thing that it sees is other hydrogen molecules, transferring an electron there
would mean the following reaction:
H- + H2 => H* + H2-
This is energetically unfavorable. I am also under the belief that the spontaneous emission of the electron into free space is also energetically
unfavorable, i.e. the process of:
H- => H* + e-
because you generate a radical, the 1s orbital is then incomplete and so this is a higher energy state
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Nicodem
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | The posative charge created on the metal by the removal of charge cause by either electrons being ejected or the special case of anions, is quenched
by the power supply that maintains the negative bias. Once ejected, these anions are repelled by cathode (the hot metal from which it was ejected and
kept at a negative bias). |
I hope you realize the nonsense of what you said here. You seem to believe that the power supplies supply charges!
All that any power supply ever does is supplying electrical current, a current that is created by the electric potential (electromotive force)
which is maintained by some energy source (chemical in bateries, mechanical in dynamos, etc.). In short, a power supply only moves charges, but
cannot create them.
| Quote: | | A free gas phase hydride anion is a relatively stable 'animal'. |
Do you have any references? Any at all? For any charged particle in the gas phase, or in any other medium of low relative permittivity?
[Edited on 1/10/2013 by Nicodem]
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | In short, a power supply only moves charges, but cannot create them. |
Never claimed that they were created. The charge separation that you are looking for occurs at the metal surface. A surface bound hydrogen atom boils
off with one too many electrons, hence a hydride anion, and it leaves a positive hole in the metal, the metal is one electron less. This is then
quenched by fresh charge supplied by the power supply. charge was only moved overall. From the opening paragraph on the wiki article on thermionic
emission I quote:
"The charge carriers can be electrons or ions, and in older literature are sometimes referred to as "thermions". After emission, a charge will
initially be left behind in the emitting region that is equal in magnitude and opposite in sign to the total charge emitted. But if the emitter is
connected to a battery, then this charge left behind will be neutralized by charge supplied by the battery, as the emitted charge carriers move away
from the emitter, and finally the emitter will be in the same state as it was before emission."
Note that this applies to ions or emitted electrons and the replenishing of charge by the battery.
| Quote: | | Do you have any references? Any at all?... |
I can refer you to the article "The Negative Ion of Hydrogen", A.R.P Rau, J. Astrophys. Astr. (1996) 17, 113–145 on the curious intrigues of the
hydride anion in the gas phase, though I am no physicist and so would appreciate it if you would shed light on the matter.
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Nicodem
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The wikipedia quote is for an electrical circuit. You proposed an electrostatic device.
| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: | | In short, a power supply only moves charges, but cannot create them. |
Never claimed that they were created. |
Seems like you need to make up your mind.
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | A stationary charged particle does not accelerate in a homogeneous magnetic field, like the field near the poles. Only if the particle moves through
the magnetic field, an orthogonal force acts on it. |
Please clarify for me, I do not understand how the particle can experience a force yet not be accelerated by it? Unless the force is cancelled out by
another force, but what is this other force?
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watson.fawkes
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You really need to learn about
acceleration with vectors and not the simplistic 1-D version. The presence of a non-zero acceleration does not mean that the magnitude of the velocity
must change. It always means, however, that the velocity vector changes somehow, either in direction or magnitude. With transverse acceleration, only
the direction changes.
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | You proposed an electrostatic device. |
No I did not, I stated that I would employ a thermionic emitter, these need to be run by a power supply. I never stated that magically 'hydride ions
spring to life'  I believe I have made it quiet clear how such a thermionic
emitter device operates and have provided resources for you in this regard as well as a reference about gas phase hydride ion behavior.
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | You really need to learn about acceleration with vectors and not the simplistic 1-D version. The presence of a non-zero acceleration does not mean
that the magnitude of the velocity must change. It always means, however, that the velocity vector changes somehow, either in direction or magnitude.
With transverse acceleration, only the direction changes. |
I am posting on this forum to discuss and learn! Anyhow, I think I understand what you are saying, let me state it in my own words to check my
understanding. So the charged balloon, when moving may be deflected by earth's magnetic field which may make it travel in a circular path around the
pole but there is no net force that either speeds it up or increases its height. The magnetic field merely deflects its path, yet it doesn't change
it's altitude. So the balloon doesn't spiral upwards, it just spirals. With no net acceleration drag will slow it down ultimately and it must become
stationary at some fixed altitude.
So the conclusion is that there is no 'significant' lifting benefit by replacing some hydrogen with hydride ions although there is the debate about
whether they can be created in the first place?
[Edited on 1-10-2013 by deltaH]
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Nicodem
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | You then run a rudimentary nickel thermionic emitter within the balloon’s interior (nickel coil heated white hot by an electric current and strongly
negatively biased) for some time to generate hydride anions in the gas mixed in with the neutral hydrogen. |
You want to take neutral mater, separate into negative and positive particles, move them apart, maintain the negative ones confined physically and
safe from discharging. That is definitively an electrostatic device.
| Quote: | | The magnetic field merely deflects its path |
Yes, you got that.
| Quote: | | So the conclusion is that there is no 'significant' lifting benefit by replacing some hydrogen with hydride ions although there is the debate about
whether they can be created in the first place? |
No to the second part. The hydride ions can be formed. What I'm trying to explain you is that you can not have a confined, dense "gas" made of charged
particles of the same polarity. The electrostatic repulsion between such a huge number of charged particles at close distance is immense. This is
incomparable to a few distant hydride ions in the vacuum of the space, maintained solo by their kinetic energy and overall space matter neutrality.
The vacuum of the space is neutral by average, there are positive and negative particles everywhere, while what you propose is something completely
different. You actually talk about matter composed of uniformly charged particles. It is a reference to such kind of matter that I requested.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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deltaH
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| Quote: | | ...can not have a confined, dense "gas" made of charged particles... |
I understand that, my idea was to convert some of the hydrogen in a balloon to hydride ions, not the whole content in the hope of that this would
decrease the density of the hydrogen. Let's for arguments sake say that my rudimentary thermionic emitter can work and starts converting some hydrogen
molecules into hydride ions when you switch it on (on the ground presumably). As you run this, I would guess that unless there is a mechanism for
neutralizing the hydride ions in the balloon quickly, then the hydrogen there would begin expanding as they feel the repulsive effect of the 'few'
hydride ions among them?
Later, when the pressure drops, you can dump the bulk of those neutral hydrogen and keep just a very few of these hydride ions as presumably on can
filter them out with something that acts as an electrostatic filter.
The second part of the idea was whether these charged ions could not contribute towards lift, but that has now been debunked, so that leaves the
outstanding questions from the first part.
| Quote: | | The density of hydrogen is already only about 7% of the air's density. It makes no sense to use any complicated system to gain a few more % of lift
force. |
This I think is a point of interest worthy of further discussion. As I understand it, when it comes to reaching high altitude, mechanisms for
decreasing the density of the lift gas are routinely employed, the simplest being heating the gas. The down side with heating is that you constantly
have to heat and this is aggravated by the fact that the super light gases have particularly high thermal conductivity exacerbating your heating
requirement problems. Also high altitude is really cold and that also exacerbates the problem.
Now while the 'thermionic emitter' may sound complicated, in it's simplest form, it's just an electrically heated coil attached to a high voltage
power supply. As I see it, all that can stay on earth after the initial charging has been completed (note the charging is partial, only some hydride
ions need to be formed to potentially have a big effect as you pointed out!).
But then again, I have no idea if forming some hydride anions would decrease the density of the bulk hydrogen?
Another interesting spin on this idea may be to use other gas that maybe isn't as light as hydrogen, but maybe less flammable but I can't think of
another potentially suitable one that could easily be converted into stable enough anions? Maybe somebody can post suggestions for this if they exist.
Right now the only gas I can think of that could be 'anionized' like this is hydrogen and potentially this could be used as a way to lower it's
density and gain lift without having to constantly heat it.
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Nicodem
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: | | ...can not have a confined, dense "gas" made of charged particles... |
I understand that, my idea was to convert some of the hydrogen in a balloon to hydride ions, not the whole content in the hope of that this would
decrease the density of the hydrogen. |
It does not mater how much and at what partial pressure. It is not possible to maintain it dispersed in the gas phase like that. You keep on ignoring
that these are charged particles and they obey the Coulomb's law.
| Quote: | | Let's for arguments sake say that my rudimentary thermionic emitter can work and starts converting some hydrogen molecules into hydride ions when you
switch it on (on the ground presumably). As you run this, I would guess that unless there is a mechanism for neutralizing the hydride ions in the
balloon quickly, then the hydrogen there would begin expanding as they feel the repulsive effect of the 'few' hydride ions among them?
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There would be no such pressure, again due to the Coulomb's law. Charged particles in a sphere migrate to the walls where they form a capacitor. The
pressure would be on the balloon walls, assuming it is made of an insulator, due to the strong electric field. As you would be pumping more and more
charge into it (by increasing the potential), at some point the capacitor-balloon would give up and discharge. This would continue on and on, and
that's just about all there would be occurring (such a device is also used as a toy and is called a plasma ball). The high hydrogen pressure would
make it very difficult, if not impossible, to charge the balloon interior without applying dozens or hundreeds of kV of potential.
I'm not going to invest time commenting the rest of your "ideas", because it is obvious you are appear too disinterested in the real world (you don't
care about the laws of physic) and scientific research (you don't argument with references or experiments).
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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deltaH
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Nicodem,
It is off course your choice should you not wish to make replies in my thread. I have no problem with that. I do however have a problem with your
tone, especially because you ARE a moderator.
Anyhow, as for you point of the hydride ions migrating to the surface interior of the balloon, that makes sense to me and point taken.
BTW I am not a physicist and my physics knowledge is highly limited, as I acknowledged in my opening post, this thread is a thought experiment, the
purpose of which is to learn something by discussion. As watson.fawkes pointed out, nobody is obliged to participate, but you are obliged to maintain
a civil tone if you do choose to participate, which you have not done.
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bfesser
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deltaH, there is nothing wrong with Nicodem's tone. What you suggest is impossible and he's been admirably patient
with you. If you wish to
discuss whimsical ideas best categorized as fiction, request access to Whimsy. [closed]
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