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APO
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D2O enrichment
I only have 20g of D2O and I would like more, but it is extremely expensive, so I want to make my own. The method I am interested in is electrolysis,
H2O splits at 1.48v and D2O splits slightly higher, if I use exactly 1.48v the H2O will hopefully split leaving the D2O in soulution,then I would add
more water to the slightly enriched soulution, and repeat the process. Any more ideas?
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neptunium
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are you trying to get the deuterium out of the heavy water? because unless you have another source of deuterium you cannot make D2O!
enriching heavy water from water (which always contain some ) with this process would take years or an industrial size set up!
its expensive for a reason..is that what you are trying to do?
on second consideration , you might be able to get a little bit by the electrolysis process...its worth trying!
[Edited on 30-12-2012 by neptunium]
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phlogiston
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I don't know where you got it from, but as chemicals go it is really not particularly expensive. Typical price is between 0.6 to 2 US dollar per ml,
depending on the quantity you order and special requirements (sterility, impurity testing etc).
It would be awesome if you could enrich some D2O yourself and it would earn you some mad scientists respect but it will never be cost effective.
Besides the sheer number of electrolysis (or distillation) steps you need to perform to reach a respectable level of enrichment, I think the first not
so trivial problem you need to tackle is how to actually measure the level of enrichment in an home lab.
There have previously been threads on this. Use search.
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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neptunium
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I would LOVE to own a mass spectrometer....wouldnt you?
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APO
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I can determine the enrichment by by the increase of density, so I think i'll try the electrolysis process.
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neptunium
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more power to you! what do have to lose? if anything you'll gain a new experience in physics and chemistry!
looks like a win win to me!
keep us posted !
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99chemicals
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http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&am...
1$ per ml + shipping.
[Edited on 12-30-2012 by 99chemicals]
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APO
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I want to make my own because 1$ a gram is kinda expensive compared to most of my stuff, and yes I got the D2O off of united nuclear.
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neptunium
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i agree ...i'd like a liter or 500ml of it but 500 bucks or even 675! is way out of my reach!
but what do you want to do with it? i mean there is not many interesting experiments to do with heavy water...and how much do you need?
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APO
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Are you kidding? There are plenty of experiments, like fusion studies, examining DDO vs HHO burn tempature, deuterating hydrocarbons, study of higher
energy hydrogen, liquid deuterium rocket fuel, and way more!
For many experiments you need compounds with specific isotopes, especially for nuclear reactions, like bubble fusion, and the fleishman and ponds
experiment.
Also I just remebered that under high energy conditions with a mix of water and lithium hydroxide that it will evolve helium and deuterium oxide.
2(H2O,LiOH) x 11(He),9(D2O)
I won't give so many details, because I heard some people on the form haven't been using proper safety precautions.
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elementcollector1
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"High energy conditions"
As in, gas phase for both compounds, an insanely high temp, .... that's the only way I could even think of lithium hydroxide and water reacting
together and *not* making a solution of lithium hydroxide.
"I won't give so many details, because I heard some people on the forum haven't been using proper safety precautions."
We give them advice on how to make such things as white phosphorus, elemental potassium, cyanide, and so much more. There's an entire subforum
dedicated to the manufacture of explosives. In short, the danger factor of some k3wl killing him/herself from trying this is about as high as the
danger factor for a large amount of the other substances that are popular in the forums right now. Spill ahead on those fusion details!
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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APO
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Ok, I'll say a little more but I won't explain the apparatus needed because I don't wanna help people hurt them selves. What I meant by high energy
conditions, was that this will only work using a super heated plasma compressed by strong magnetic fields, and being excited by a high voltage. The
electrodes need to be in a grid inside another gride as the cathode and anode, also the high energy state is started and maintained by a high voltage.
The chemical mixture it 2 parts lithium hydroxide monohydrate, and 9 parts water(never use heavy water). If you use heavy water it will not absorb the
resulting neutrons, and will instead keep them constant by moderating them, if you did do that you would need radiation protection. This kind of
fusion is unique, because if done correctly it poses no threat of a meltdown, or hazerdous by-products. The rest of the details are classified for
safety and financial reasons.
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kristofvagyok
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Quote: Originally posted by APO  | Also I just remebered that under high energy conditions with a mix of water and lithium hydroxide that it will evolve helium and deuterium oxide.
2(H2O,LiOH) x 11(He),9(D2O)
I won't give so many details, because I heard some people on the form haven't been using proper safety precautions. |
At first, nuclear reactions looks easy on paper but if you want to make them then it's a bit problematic.
Second: mixing some LiOH and some water, exposing them to a little energy will result a big nothing, you won't get helium and D2O from those.
Third: lithium is a mixture of Li6 and Li7 what are two completely different thing, let's see just their reaction with a neutron:
Li-6 + n -> T + He-4 +4.78 MeV
Li-7 + n -> T + He-4 + n -2.47 MeV
Fourth: If you do not add D2O to the mixture or something what will give off a neutron at elevated temperature/pressure/ect than what will start the
reaction what will turn the LiOH to He and T/D2O? Or how will it work? Get out a particle from here, put it to there?
Fifth: we've got a few kg of LiOH, I would be really thankful if you would describe the method for turning it to D2O, because currently we can't use
LiOH to anything useful.
Sixth: back to the original topic, D2O is one of the cheapest deuterated solvents. Unless you got free electricity, there is no chance to make it
cheaper.
Seventh:
| Quote: | This kind of fusion is unique, because if done correctly it poses no threat of a meltdown, or hazerdous by-products.
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Please, tell a few more details, I'm interested in nuclear chemistry.
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neptunium
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| Quote: Originally posted by APO | Are you kidding? There are plenty of experiments, like fusion studies, examining DDO vs HHO burn tempature, deuterating hydrocarbons, study of higher
energy hydrogen, liquid deuterium rocket fuel, and way more!
For many experiments you need compounds with specific isotopes, especially for nuclear reactions, like bubble fusion, and the fleishman and ponds
experiment.
Also I just remebered that under high energy conditions with a mix of water and lithium hydroxide that it will evolve helium and deuterium oxide.
2(H2O,LiOH) x 11(He),9(D2O)
I won't give so many details, because I heard some people on the form haven't been using proper safety precautions. |
thats exactly what i thought you might say....i just wanted to hear it from you
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neptunium
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| Quote: Originally posted by APO | | Ok, I'll say a little more but I won't explain the apparatus needed because I don't wanna help people hurt them selves. What I meant by high energy
conditions, was that this will only work using a super heated plasma compressed by strong magnetic fields, and being excited by a high voltage. The
electrodes need to be in a grid inside another gride as the cathode and anode, also the high energy state is started and maintained by a high voltage.
The chemical mixture it 2 parts lithium hydroxide monohydrate, and 9 parts water(never use heavy water). If you use heavy water it will not absorb the
resulting neutrons, and will instead keep them constant by moderating them, if you did do that you would need radiation protection. This kind of
fusion is unique, because if done correctly it poses no threat of a meltdown, or hazerdous by-products. The rest of the details are classified for
safety and financial reasons. |
i knew where this was going...you are talking about the polywell my friend.
if done correctly ? this is beyond the scope of a home scientist, you WILL get radiations out of your fusor/polywell
dont want to discourage you or anything but good luck!
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APO
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I know I haven't said much about the nuclear method, but I will say that it won't work properly inside a farnsworth fusor. Also scince this takes
place in water , the neutrons will usually rip into the protium and make deuterium, scince the deuterium oxide doesn't absorb neutrons it just
moderates them,then it will make more D2O out of the normal water. The chance of tritated water is very low because of this and it's decay is
helium-3. The isotopes used in this method use hydrogen-1 ,lithium-7 and oxygen-16, and because there are 11 water molecules and only two lithium
hydroxide molecules only the the atoms of two water molecules are conductive enough to gain enough energy to split and then fuse. When it's taking
place, first at 220 volts the conductive water molecules split effectively enough to were there is a brief atomosphere around the electrodes, allowing
a spark gap, which ignites the resulting HHO, and then ionizes it, so that will get it up to a pretty high tempature but no fission/fusion. I'm not
sure what exact voltage it must get up to for the nuclear reaction to occur, but when it does each lithium hydroxide monohydrate molecule is split
into 22 protons, 20 neutrons, and 20 electrons, so it will form 11 helium-3 atoms and 9 deuterium oxide molecules.
Also I accidentally messed up the equation so here is the right one: 1(H2O,LiOH),9(H2O) x E = 11(He),9(D2O)
It makes Helium-3, and Deuterium Oxide, so some pretty useful stuff is obtained. Of course the method is still being refined. Feel free to ask
questions, just note that the aparatus to get this to occur is currently classified.
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APO
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Also it will not work in a polywell, it needs a very special reactor.
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kristofvagyok
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| Quote: Originally posted by APO | | Also I accidentally messed up the equation so here is the right one: 1(H2O,LiOH),9(H2O) x E = 11(He),9(D2O) |
We've got some uranyl nitrate... According to this I could make some DIY plutonium-nitrate? AWESOME!
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APO
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I see no way that this would make a nitrate, also plutonium production would require way too much electricity. You might be able to make plutonium
from having a rod of uranium-238 dioxide in D2O with tungsten carbide walls though. Also plutonium is illegal.
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phlogiston
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So, in summary you've got a prototype of a tabletop fusion device up and running but just need a bit of D2O to fuel it, but that's too expensive.
So, you are clearly about to solve the worlds energy and natural resources crisises. You'll be easily able to afford a few $ worth of heavy water in
the near future so why not find an investor, unless you simply enjoy the challenge ofcourse, which I -DO- totally understand.
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APO
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No, I have a reactor that makes D2O for other experiments, but I'm interested in other D2O enrichment processes.
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IrC
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So that hydroxide, would that be Li 6 or 7? I have long dreamed of exceeding the Lawson criterion with water in a liquid state using a tabletop device
I built for 50 bucks with materials from Home Depot. I would then tell a public forum how classified it is while I kept bringing it up. From reading
many alternative energy sites over time often I read classified as code for "how the hell would I know".
I also wonder how many gallons of water you process per each liter of D2O, or is this yet another fusion device where you are inserting the neutrons
into each Hydrogen atom.
[Edited on 12-31-2012 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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neptunium
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come on guys ! tone the sarcasm down a little ! this is a science forum ! everyone with a made up system and no proof should be able to share its
tails!
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APO
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All you care about is that it can't be partly classified? I don't make the rules but I gotta follow them. I just thought you guys would like to know
the reaction, that's all.
[Edited on 31-12-2012 by APO]
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IrC
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Classified means you do not discuss it period. No admitting any existence. You are merely showing the classic symptoms of coming here to blow your own
horn with nothing to back it up. Problem is I don't give a damn. I doubt many do. You said it, this is a science forum. Where we DISCUSS science. Not
where we claim to know more than God but are not allowed to talk about it. Don Lancaster has many articles on the certain way in general the hocus
pocus science crowd behaves and this thread is classic. And irritating.
Took Ford little time to get people driving. Edison little time to light homes. Tesla even less time to light the entire planet. They made something,
made no secret maybe someday we will see it claims, got it out there so we can go buy it fast. I have been listening to claims such as yours since the
60's and so far not one of tens of thousands has appeared at Walmart. Or the gas station. I still burn dead dinosaurs to get to Walmart by the way.
You complain to me about being sarcastic yet read my post carefully. I asked two simple questions. You answered neither. Typical. As you said this is
a science forum where we discuss things. I recall few saying I have a mysterious black box, believe what I say, but you are not allowed to see the
box. This does not constitute a discussion in any way. Accomplishes no discourse among members other that to convey an impression you know things with
fantastic claims only you are allowed to know. Where I must ask is the discussion in that? You merely worked there. Did you sign a non disclosure
agreement and if so why are you talking about it here in public? No employer would tolerate this. If you did not sign one I can promise all here
nothing you are talking about has any super secret repercussions concerning the near future for anyone. I spent many years in billion dollar R&D
facilities, I know the drill quite well.
Instead of complaining to or about me answer my two simple questions. Li 6 or 7, how many gallons of water do you waste per liter of D2O? And why is
it you only have a few ml when you have access to amazing new ways to create, or concentrate it, whichever. I will not bother to ask how you survive
the neutron flux. If there is any merit in your claims then alter the way in which you are conducting this thread in a quasi secretive way. Talk about
it don't talk about it. If you do, say something of use which can be openly discussed, the very purpose behind this board.
I should add this: look at the thread beginning.
D2O enrichment:
"I only have 20g of D2O and I would like more, but it is extremely expensive, so I want to make my own. The method I am interested in is electrolysis,
H2O splits at 1.48v and D2O splits slightly higher, if I use exactly 1.48v the H2O will hopefully split leaving the D2O in soulution,then I would add
more water to the slightly enriched soulution, and repeat the process. Any more ideas?"
OK I'll bite. If in your further posts you try to convince people you worked where this amazing new method has been achieved, then start acting
secretive, then why ask "Any more ideas?"
How are we supposed to know your the one who worked there, and are not allowed to tell. This being the case, i.e., you are privy to this new dubious
sounding process, why on earth would you need to ask anyone here if they have any ideas?
I am not trying to lay waste to you or your claims, who knows maybe you do have some new thing.
I am merely reacting to the lack of logic being exercised in a most annoying way. Read again your beginning post. You are not creating new D2O. Merely
getting the vanishingly small amount already there. This requires the processing of an ocean of water (put right back in the ocean after D2O depletion
by the way).
[Edited on 12-31-2012 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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