pinxsy
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 25-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
sodium carbonate from table salt
I tried to produce sodium carbonate from table salt without any liquid involved.
Here is the reaction:
2NaCl(s) + 1/2 O2(g) + CO2(g) -> Na2CO3(s) + Cl2(g)
Is it even possible?
If yes, is there any catalyst to make the reaction go fast?
I need the reaction to be below 1500C as this is how high my smelter can go and cannot hold any liquid.
I need help really.. Please give me any advice or suggestion.
Tq in advance.
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
Want sodium carbonate..try heating baking soda to something like 200 C..its alot easier, even if your reaction would work, and I doubt it--maybe if
you compressed the gasses to 100 atm and then lowered it slowly to 0 atm. Does H2CO3 exist in the vapor phase?--that might be another expensive
inefficient way to produce Na2CO3
BOLD
|
|
|
pinxsy
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 25-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
But baking soda is expensive itself 
I try using NaCl because i want to produce Na2CO3 in large scale.
How do you come into conclusion that the gasses needs to be compressed?
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by pinxsy  | I tried to produce sodium carbonate from table salt without any liquid involved.
Here is the reaction:
2NaCl(s) + 1/2 O2(g) + CO2(g) -> Na2CO3(s) + Cl2(g)
Is it even possible?
If yes, is there any catalyst to make the reaction go fast?
I need the reaction to be below 1500C as this is how high my smelter can go and cannot hold any liquid.
I need help really.. Please give me any advice or suggestion.
Tq in advance. |
Search for old patents. Even if you can get this to work (I'm very doubtful) it's an expensive way to produce a chemical that's cheap as chips and
totally OTC.
Regards thermodynamical feasability, you need to calculate overall Gibbs Free Energy change (Delta G) at reaction temperature to get an idea of
that...
The BP of NaCl is 1413 C but well below that it's fairly volatile and will get everywhere, especially when fluxing gas through it.
[Edited on 27-2-2012 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination!
|
|
I suspect that sodium carbonate can be bought cheaply almost everywhere.
Have a look in your local supermarket or hardware shop for washing soda.
The original suggested reaction is ridiculous. I doubt it would occur under any conditions.
|
|
|
ScienceSquirrel
|
Thread Moved
27-2-2012 at 07:59 |
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by pinxsy | But baking soda is expensive itself
I try using NaCl because i want to produce Na2CO3 in large scale.
How do you come into conclusion that the gasses needs to be compressed?
|
Read a chemistry book. Le Chatelier's principle.
BOLD
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
What makes you think it worked..?
BOLD
|
|
|
pinxsy
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 25-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
AirCowPeaCock: the reactants are not all gases in this case though, mmm... solid NaCl is involved and pressure is pretty much negligible for solid.
Since the BP of NaCl is as high as 1413C, temperature needs to be around that high for NaCl to turn gas first before Le Chatelier's principle actually
takes effect. I am just hoping to turn NaCl(s) -> NaCl(g) around 800C, haha, if that is possible.
|
|
|
pinxsy
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 25-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
cause we did the whole experiment and we got the product
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
| Quote: | | 2NaCl(s) + 1/2 O2(g) + CO2(g) -> Na2CO3 + Cl2(g) |
I see gaseous reacting and products, kind sir. It would be more accurate to write it like this though.
4NaCl(l) + O2(g) + 2CO2(g) <-> 2Na2CO3(l) + 2Cl2(g) at 1 atm
Count the moles of gas.
What makes you think you have the product, do you have super eyes and can see the individual molecules in the material?
BOLD
|
|
|
pinxsy
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 25-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
AirCowPeaCock: Sadly, yes i do not have super eyes, how i wish! But from color we can differentiate between for example, Fe and rust...
and thank you for further explaining the Le Chatelier's, it will be a good idea to try!
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
If you want sodium silicate, you may just be better using saturated NaOH on SiO2 or even some old, clean glass.
Also, I have to agree with all of above. I went to the store yesterday and bought a whole kilogram of sodium carbonate, quite pure, for less than
$1.50.
[Edited on 27-2-2012 by Hexavalent]
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
pinxsy
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 25-2-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thank you Hexavalent.
Really appreciate to u all!
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
Nice, what kind of store sells you Na2CO3? I know wine/beer making stores sell it, is their another place? I just make mine from baking soda, its
not that bad, after I make it I know its anhydrous already.
What back-round in chemistry do you have pinxsy?
[Edited on 2-27-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]
BOLD
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
I just went to the supermarket and found the Na2CO3 on the washing products aisle, labelled as 'Washing Soda'. The list of ingredients on the back
says '99% Sodium Carbonate', which is good enough for my purposes.
Whilst I was there, I also picked up half a kilo of sodium sesquicarbonate, the double salt of Na2CO3 and NaHCO3, as a fabric softener.
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
Interesting, I'll look into that. Thanks
BOLD
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1694
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I bought a large bottle of sodium carbonate for pH adjustment in the pool supply area of a store like Lowes or Home Depot. Just another source.
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
Thanks, I may get off my baking soda habit. Do you think it comes anhydrous?
BOLD
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
I'm jealous of you Americans and your pool supply stores . . .here in the UK it's insanely difficult to get hold of NaBr or sodium bisulfate OTC!
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
It's not that great, the NaBr has some junk in it to make it difficult to achieve pure HBr. And I haven't found bisulfate, though I haven't looked
that far. I just make it from my sulfuric acid and sodium hydroxide--its probably cheaper that way anyways. You should be jealous of a L of 94-98%
H2SO4 for 2$ and a pound of NaOH for 3$. How hard is it to get KMnO4 over there?
BOLD
|
|
|
Hexavalent
International Hazard
Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pericyclic
|
|
The only place I've found, short of chemical suppliers, is eBay!
"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
|
|
|
AirCowPeaCock
Hazard to Others
Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hazardous
|
|
eBays great. I got a pound of technical grade MnO for something like 5$--the only real uses I have for manganese compounds (besides permanganate) are
as catalysts, so it will last me for ever.
[Edited on 2-28-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]
BOLD
|
|
|
Morgan
International Hazard
Posts: 1694
Registered: 28-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have a can of this in my garage. The front label says it contains sodium bisulfate. Just another source.
http://www.contenti.com/products/soldering/510-871.html
http://www.krohnindustries.com/71101.html
For all your crown-of-thorns starfish needs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bisulfate
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
