Waffles SS
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Aluminium Triacetate
I want to use calcium acetate instead of barium acetate(due to Toxicity of barium acetate,i want to use it in medicine cream)
First i want to find out exactly how many water molecular my aluminium sulfate has?
I did some experience for this purpose but i was unsuccessful.
First i did below reaction:
Al2(SO4)3 + 6 NaHCO3 → 3 Na2SO4 + 2 Al(OH)3 + 6 CO2
I used 100gram Aluminium sulfate and got only 25 gram Aluminium hydroxide!(my aluminium sulfate is big shiny crystall and at last it should be 17-18
hydrate but i got amazing result)
also i did below reaction:
Al2(SO4)3 + 6 NaOH = 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 Na2SO4
I got another amazong result.this reaction happen only in 90-100 c and doesnt happen at room temperature and i think it must react rapidly!
finally i decide to dry my aluminium sulfate by heat but i read some where that it will decompose on 90c!
Now i really have no idea for finding a way to determine water molecule in my aluminium sulfate
Also i didnt find any information about Aluminium triactate?like solubility in water?melting point?..
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LanthanumK
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First, a slight excess of aluminium sulfate will precipitate all of the barium as the harmless barium sulfate. Barium sulfate can be consumed in large
quantities without adverse effects.
Aluminium hydroxide dissolves easily in an excess of sodium hydroxide to form sodium aluminate, which is soluble in water.
The decomposition of aluminium sulfate at 90 degrees constitutes the loss of the water molecules. Anhydrous aluminium sulfate melts at 770 degrees
Celsius.
I once dissolved freshly precipitated aluminium hydroxide in acetic acid. When evaporated, wet crystals smelling strongly of acetic acid are formed.
They are readily soluble in water and are likely hygroscopic. I would assume that they decompose when heated to acetic acid and aluminium hydroxide.
hibernating...
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blogfast25
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Correct, Lanthanum K, Waffles added too much strong alkali and obtained <i>aluminate</i>
(Al(OH)<sub>4</sub><sup>-</sup> , which then hydrolysed to
hydrated alumina on heating.
To avoid this problem, precipitate the aluminium using ammonia solution, which isn't alkaline enough to redissolve the alumina to aluminate...
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Waffles SS
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Quote: Originally posted by LanthanumK  | First, a slight excess of aluminium sulfate will precipitate all of the barium as the harmless barium sulfate. Barium sulfate can be consumed in large
quantities without adverse effects.
Aluminium hydroxide dissolves easily in an excess of sodium hydroxide to form sodium aluminate, which is soluble in water.
The decomposition of aluminium sulfate at 90 degrees constitutes the loss of the water molecules. Anhydrous aluminium sulfate melts at 770 degrees
Celsius.
I once dissolved freshly precipitated aluminium hydroxide in acetic acid. When evaporated, wet crystals smelling strongly of acetic acid are formed.
They are readily soluble in water and are likely hygroscopic. I would assume that they decompose when heated to acetic acid and aluminium hydroxide.
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Thanks my friend,
I think combination of aluminium hydroxide with acetic acid make aluminium diacetate not Triacetate.you think your aluminium acetate decomposed during
evaporation step?
Do you have any information about aluminium triacetate?
I didnt make strong alkaline solution(i made 1 molar NaOH solution)also i add 50% aluminium sulfate solution to NaOH solution .
I think sodium aluminate produce only in strong alkaline solution not in my experience
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AJKOER
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Per one of my references, Aluminum triacetate can be produced by dissolving Aluminum sulfate in Lead or Barium acetate solution.
Same source, Aluminium diacetate from Sodium aluminate and acetic acid.
[Edited on 9-2-2012 by AJKOER]
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blogfast25
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Aluminium is probably quite soluble in 20 - 30 % acetic acid, applying mild heat.
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Nicodem
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I will be surprised if someone finds a veritable source that confirms that something like aluminium triacetate can be prepared by aqueous chemistry.
Aluminium triacetate, if it exists at all, should be more acidic than acetic acid, so it seems totally counterintuitive that it could be formed from
acetic acid or acetates in water and furthermore be stable toward hydrolysis!
| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | Per one of my references, Aluminum triacetate can be produced by dissolving Aluminum sulfate in Lead or Barium acetate solution.
Same source, Aluminium diacetate from Sodium aluminate and acetic acid. |
Is one of your references, that for some reason you don't cite, perhaps the referenceless wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_acetate ?
Edit: Again someone started a thread without doing the homework. Five seconds of UTFSE gives the previous thread on the topic:
| Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog | | The downside of this is that the triacetate of aluminum is not easily made. The preparation in Brauer *starts* with acetic anhydride. Similarly there
is a US patent (2141477) which, while using far smaller quantities, still starts with acetic anhydride to prepare neutral aluminum acetate. Wikipedia
suggests barium acetate plus aluminum sulfate, but I can't find whatever primary reference this is based on (if indeed it isn't just pure
fabrication). |
[Edited on 9/2/2012 by Nicodem]
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AJKOER
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My source on the preparations is "Concise Encyclopedia Chemistry", by Walter de Gruyter, on the topic of Aluminum Acetates, page 51. Now, in defense
of my source, in its cited preparation of HIO3 (I2 + H2O + Cl2), it does mention the need for Ag2O to remove the created HCl for the reaction to be
successful, unlike Wikipedia.
De Gruyter's book per its name, however, is concise in its preparation details, but, to date, I believe it to be mostly accurate. My recommendation is
to consult a more extensive source if more detail is suspected to be necessary for a successful synthesis.
FYI, I have now searched Wikipedia and found precisely the same double recipe quoted in De Gruyter's book. However, I believe the unspoken detail is
the slow nature of the reaction. See "Pharmaceutical and pharmacological evaluation of Burow's solution (aluminum acetate solution), hospital
preparation, and development of its rapid preparation method]" by Ishibashi Y, Murakami T, Yumoto R, Sakai M, Shintani H, Itaha H, Kanbe M, Masuda S,
Yajin K, Kihira K, Takano M.
Abstract
Burow's solution, or aluminum acetate solution, is effective in inhibiting various microorganisms including methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus
aureus (MRSA) that are commonly observed in chronic suppurative otitis media. It takes several days to prepare Burow's solution using aluminum
sulfate, and the pharmaceutical properties of the solution are not fully understood. In this study, the effect of storage (5 months) of Burow's
solution prepared according to the Teine-Keijin Hospital manual on its pharmaceutical properties and antibacterial activities was examined. We also
attempted to develop a rapid preparation method of aluminum acetate (or 1.7% aluminum) solution using two commercially available compounds of aluminum
acetate basic (Al(2)O(CH(3)CO(2))(4), Al(OH)(CH(3)CO(2))(2)). The properties of Burow's solution, pH, osmolarity and antibacterial activity, were the
same among different preparations and its storage for 5 months at 4 degrees C had no effect on these properties. The antibacterial potency of Burow's
solution was dependent on aluminum concentration and its antibacterial potency against S. aureus and several MRSA strains was of the same magnitude.
In a rapid preparation, aluminum acetate basic was mixed with appropriate amounts of tartaric acid and acetic acid, and the suspension was boiled for
2-2.5 hr until dissolved. The rapidly prepared aluminum acetate solution showed the same pharmaceutical properties and antibacterial activities as
those of Burow's solution. The newly developed preparation method for aluminum acetate solution is expected to be convenient and feasible for hospital
treatment of chronic suppurative otitis media."
There is also a patent to speed up the reaction and make more stable solutions:
"Method of preparing stable aluminum acetate solutions"
Patent 5233065 Issued on August 3, 1993.
"In Applicant's process, 0.1-1.0 mols of acetic acid is added to 1 mol of the basic aluminum halide with adequate mixing. Best results and process
feasibility are obtained when the basic aluminum halide solutions are adequately mixed during the addition of the glacial acetic acid. The addition of
the glacial acetic acid causes the formation of white precipitate which is believed to be basic aluminum acetate. The precipitate redissolves soon
after its formation. After all the glacial acetic acid has been added, the batch is then mixed for a period of time until a clear solution is obtained
(usually 30 minutes, and in some cases with very large batches one hour). Next, while still mixing add alpha hydroxy carboxylic acid salt having a
neutral to mildly alkaline (7-10) pH is added in concentrations of 2-20% by weight of alpha hydroxy carboxylic acid salt in the final solution, such
as sodium, ammonium, potassium, or triethanolamine lactates, citrates or tartrates, or mixtures thereof, is added and mixing of the solution continues
until a uniform clear solution is obtained. The final solution contains aluminum as aluminum trioxide in concentrations of 1-22% by weight with a
preferred range of 10-20% by weight"
[Edited on 10-2-2012 by AJKOER]
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Waffles SS
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| Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem | I will be surprised if someone finds a veritable source that confirms that something like aluminium triacetate can be prepared by aqueous chemistry.
Aluminium triacetate, if it exists at all, should be more acidic than acetic acid, so it seems totally counterintuitive that it could be formed from
acetic acid or acetates in water and furthermore be stable toward hydrolysis!
| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | Per one of my references, Aluminum triacetate can be produced by dissolving Aluminum sulfate in Lead or Barium acetate solution.
Same source, Aluminium diacetate from Sodium aluminate and acetic acid. |
Is one of your references, that for some reason you don't cite, perhaps the referenceless wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_acetate ?
Edit: Again someone started a thread without doing the homework. Five seconds of UTFSE gives the previous thread on the topic:
| Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog | | The downside of this is that the triacetate of aluminum is not easily made. The preparation in Brauer *starts* with acetic anhydride. Similarly there
is a US patent (2141477) which, while using far smaller quantities, still starts with acetic anhydride to prepare neutral aluminum acetate. Wikipedia
suggests barium acetate plus aluminum sulfate, but I can't find whatever primary reference this is based on (if indeed it isn't just pure
fabrication). |
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This is not my homework(which university or high school has this home work?)I Graduate 3 years ago.
One of my friend requested this to me and i like to make it(he is Pharmacist)
You want to say Barium Acetate + aluminium sulfate goes different route?
I tested it one time and i am sure i got barium sulfate(when i mix these together lot of Sediment appeared.sure that is barium sulfate)
Unfortunately i didnt have enough time for evaporating solution and testing soluble material
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AJKOER
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A obvious point, but given that the solution is intended for medical use and assuming you use a Barium salt path, please employ an excess of Aluminium
sulfate and allow sufficient time to convert all the Barium acetate, as it is a toxic salt.
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bbartlog
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OK, but this is not the same thing as preparing aluminium triacetate. Taking basic aluminium acetate and adding acetic acid in solution may indeed get
you a solution that has three times as much acetate as aluminium, ion for ion... and if you then try to isolate the compound mentioned in the thread
title you'll end up with that same basic aluminium acetate along with acetic acid. It is more or less the same problem as trying to prepare anhydrous
AlCl3 via aqueous solution, i.e. essentially impossible.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
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AJKOER
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Per Waffes SS: "One of my friend requested this to me and i like to make it (he is Pharmacist)"
In my opinion, the answer to the Pharmacist's questions relates to one or both of the following :
Source: "The Free Dictionary" by Farlex:
"Aluminum acetate topical solution": a preparation of aluminum subacetate solution, glacial acetic acid, and water; an astringent applied topically
to the skin as a wet dressing and used as a gargle or mouthwash.
"Aluminum subacetate topical solution": a solution of aluminum sulfate, acetic acid, precipitated calcium carbonate, and water; applied topically as
an astringent, and also as an antiseptic and a wet dressing.
"Burow's solution": a liquid preparation containing aluminum sulfate, acetic acid, precipitated calcium carbonate, and water, used as a topical
astringent, antiseptic, and antipyretic for a wide variety of skin disorders. Also called aluminum acetate solution.
(from Mosby's Medical Dictionary, 8th edition. © 2009, Elsevier) . LINK: http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Burow's+solution
Now, based on these definitions, Burow's solution is another name for Aluminum subacetate topical solution.
However, "Aluminum subacetate Topical Solution" is, per another reference, described as:
"Aluminum Subacetate Topical Solution
C4H7AlO5 162.08
Aluminum,bis(acetato-O)hydroxy-.
Bis(acetato)hydroxyaluminum.
Basic aluminum acetate [142-03-0;8000-61-1].
Aluminum Subacetate Topical Solution yields, from each 100mL, not less than 2.30g and not more than 2.60g of aluminum oxide (Al2O3), and not less than
5.43g and not more than 6.13g of acetic acid (C2H4O2). It may be stabilized by the addition of not more than 0.9percent of boric acid.
Aluminum Subacetate Topical Solution may be prepared as follows.
Aluminum Sulfate 145g
Acetic Acid 160mL
Calcium Carbonate 70g
Purified Water,a sufficient quantity,
to make 1000mL
Dissolve the Aluminum Sulfate in 600mLof cold water, filter the solution,and add the Calcium Carbonate gradually, in several portions,with constant
stirring.Then slowly add the Acetic Acid,mix,and set the mixture aside for 24hours. Filter the product with the aid of vacuum if necessary, returning
the first portion of the filtrate to the funnel. Wash the magma on the filter with small portions of cold water,until the total filtrate measures
1000mL."
LINK: http://www.newdruginfo.com/pharmacopeia/usp28/v28230/usp28nf...
I describe the expected reaction above as the formation of Calcium acetate and CO2 (Acetic acid + CaCO3), and a double replacement reaction with
Aluminum sulfate forming insoluble CaSO4 and the basic Aluminium diacetate.
Note also, per Wikipedia, the stated formula above for this topical preparation is for basic Aluminium diacetate, HOAl(C2H3O2)2. The diacetate, per
Wikipedia, can also be prepared in a reaction between sodium aluminate (NaAlO2) and acetic acid.
Now, if the Pharmacist is instead interested in ""Aluminum acetate topical solution", then the preparation suggests per Wiki, "bringing together
aluminium hydroxide, acetic anhydride and glacial acetic acid in water, forming the basic aluminium monoacetate".
Hence, this thread, in my humble opinion, should be about the basic Aluminum acetates and not Aluminum triactetate as these are the topical solutions
of interest to a Pharmacist.
[Edited on 10-2-2012 by AJKOER]
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Waffles SS
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Thanks AJKOER ,You are right.
My friend just told me aluminium acetate(not aluminium triacetate)
I searched in google and foundout reaction between aluminium sulfate and calcium acetate use in medicine also i foundout (in wiki) that aluminium
triacetate prepare by this reaction.I thought that aluminium triacetate produce by this method but now i findout basic alumium acetate is final
product
Basic alumium acetate is insoluble in water but sodium aluminate is soluble,i think its better to prepare Basic aluminium acetate by sodium aluminate
+ acetic acid
NaAlO2 +3AcOH = Al(AcO)2OH + AcONa + H2O
[Edited on 11-2-2012 by Waffles SS]
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Nicodem
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Not from chemical sciences, I guess.
| Quote: | | One of my friend requested this to me and i like to make it(he is Pharmacist) |
It causes shivers in my spine to realize we have members who are so unscrupulous to potentially poison people with barium and who knows what. Did it
not occur to you that, if a pharmacist asked you to prepare something, it was because it was intended for use on humans? Pharmacists have
pharmacopeias and pharmaceutical specifications exactly for such reasons! Instead, you don't even know which pharmaceutical preparation you are
supposed to prepare.
| Quote: | | You want to say Barium Acetate + aluminium sulfate goes different route? |
If you would have taken five minutes to read thread I linked to, you would have realized by now that aqueous solutions of aluminium triacetate don't
exist. It is simply thermodynamically improbable that such a compound could exist in aqueous solution. That's what you get by believing some bogus
unreferenced wikipedia claims.
| Quote: | Basic alumium acetate is insoluble in water but sodium aluminate is soluble,i think its better to prepare Basic aluminium acetate by sodium aluminate
+ acetic acid
NaAlO2 +3AcOH = Al(AcO)2OH + AcONa + H2O |
If you can't get more responsible and give up with this nonsense, at least be decent enough to use the procedure from your local pharmacopoeia before
you cause someone to get hurt!
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AJKOER
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Waffles SS:
Thanks for honesty.
You would be surprised how rarely anyone actually admits to a mistake on this forum.
I am glad that my deductions may have aided you and your friend from much more than an mere embarrassment.
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Waffles SS
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Organic chemistry & Computer (Software)
I am student of chemistry for ever
| Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem |
It causes shivers in my spine to realize we have members who are so unscrupulous to potentially poison people with barium and who knows what. Did it
not occur to you that, if a pharmacist asked you to prepare something, it was because it was intended for use on humans? Pharmacists have
pharmacopeias and pharmaceutical specifications exactly for such reasons! Instead, you don't even know which pharmaceutical preparation you are
supposed to prepare.
|
I dont know who is Pharmacists in your country but in my country Pharmacists should make:Aspirine,Paracetamole,Peniciline,.. and test these drugs in
him/her body
Also i think searching in internet and in book library is first step for making chemicals reagent(like drug) now i am at this level
| Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem |
If you would have taken five minutes to read thread I linked to, you would have realized by now that aqueous solutions of aluminium triacetate don't
exist. It is simply thermodynamically improbable that such a compound could exist in aqueous solution. That's what you get by believing some bogus
unreferenced wikipedia claims.
|
Where i said i want aluminium triacetate solution?(name of this topic is aluminium triacetate not solution of aluminium triacetate!)
Also i found interesting method for making Aluminium triacetate:
aluminium triacetateAl(O2CMe)3,can be prepared by heating AlCl3 or al powder with a mixture of acetic acid and acetic anhydrid
Chemistry of aluminium, gallium, indium, and thallium
By Anthony John Downs
http://books.google.com/books?id=v-04Kn758yIC&pg=PA158&a...
| Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem |
If you can't get more responsible and give up with this nonsense, at least be decent enough to use the procedure from your local pharmacopoeia before
you cause someone to get hurt! |
Dont worry my friend
He want analysis paper too and they are not hurtable
Thanks Ajoker
[Edited on 12-2-2012 by Waffles SS]
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Waffles SS
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Today i tried to make Basic Aluminium Acetate and i got amazing result
First i dissolved 2 kilogram of Sodium Aluminate hydrate in 4lit of water then i added 3600 gram of acetic acid in three portion.after adding first
portion the temp increased and all of my solution suddenly get solid and all of water disappeared after adding second portion all of solid dissolved
and solution got milky and finally after adding third portion i tried to filter solution but i was unsuccessful and even with vacuum i couldnt to
filter solution(water didnt pass from filter paper.i had to use cloth for filter step)
But amazing step is final product.after drying i just got 500gram white powder.really this is Basic aluminium acetate?
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blogfast25
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Did you check stoichiometry?
During the first addition you're neutralising the aluminate and Al(OH)3 drops out. On further addition this will redissolve to Al acetate but you get
a mixture of Al acetate and Na acetate.
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Waffles SS
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Yes i checked Stoichiometry,
NaAlO2*H2O + 3AcOH = AcONa + Al(AcO)2OH*H2O + H2O
~100gram + 180 = 82 + 180
x20=
2000 +3600 = 1640 + 3600
Also i confused when i added aluminium hydroxide to acetic acid,aluminium hydroxide didnt dissolved in acetic acid !!!
I warmed solution but it seems aluminium hydroxide didnt react with acetic acid
If really Basic aluminium acetate is insoluble in water we can make it from Sodium acetate + aluminium Sulfate and also another possible method.(merck
wrote this is insoluble in water)
I really dont know i made Aluminium diacetate or Aluminium monoacetate!(i am really confused)
[Edited on 21-2-2012 by Waffles SS]
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blogfast25
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We have to assume it is insoluble, otherwise a prescribed synth. from Na aluminate and acetic acid makes NO sense (as it would be impossible to
separate the two acetates).
Really you need to determine the Al content of the final product after washing and drying. Digest a weighed sample in conc. H2SO4 and determine Al
volumetrically with EDTA titration? If Al content of the dry product corresponds to stoichiometry of basic aluminium acetate, you can be sure the
product is basic aluminium acetate.
High(ish) temperature digestion of the dry product with conc. H2SO4 may also allow to determine acetate content (collect the displaced HAc and
acid-base titrate it).
[Edited on 21-2-2012 by blogfast25]
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MrDoctor
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Does anyone know, since Alu triacetate seems to be able to form in benzene, if one was to use R-AlCl3 (the AlCl3-benzene complex) instead of free
AlCl3, mixed with sodium acetate, would this reaction proceed? references ive seen only say heating is required but never how much. one benefit too of
refluxing benzene is that any water that forms or makes its way in is removed, but this does also limit the maximum temperature this can be run under.
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