| Pages:
1
2 |
Fusionfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 219
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Can small quantities of nitrocellulose detonate?
As someone still working on my practical nitration experience, I enjoy nitrocellulose. The nitration process is benign and the product itself
predictable and difficult to detonate - unlike say nitroglycerin 
But is it possible to get NC to detonate? How would you achieve SDT or DDT with it?
For small quantities, I'm thinking that loose nitrated cotton won't be able to SDT/DDT - it has to be compacted so a shock can self-propagate and
self-reinforce through it. In addition it should be confined, so we are probably looking at a hard NC rod made by dissolving NC in acetone in a filter
paper tube and drying it off, then putting the nearly pure NC rod in a metal tube. Primer at one end for SDT or light it with a pyrotechnic fuze for
DDT.
BTW if someone with institutional access could share these documents with us, I would be grateful 
Experiments on the transition deflagration-detonation of propellants
R. Frauenfelder
http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/prep.830080604
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by Fusionfire]
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
I doubt it will DDT, even when compressed and confined unless you are dealing with very large amounts. I have detonated cellulose nitrate before, but
I had to use a large and powerful booster(TNP) along with my primary to get repeatable results. Do some tests. I bet a good primary explosive in a
well designed cap, or a compound cap with a strong and sensitive secondary at optimum densities is what could work on small scales.
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Blasty
Hazard to Others
Posts: 107
Registered: 25-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  | As someone still working on my practical nitration experience, I enjoy nitrocellulose. The nitration process is benign and the product itself
predictable and difficult to detonate - unlike say nitroglycerin
But is it possible to get NC to detonate? How would you achieve SDT or DDT with it?
For small quantities, I'm thinking that loose nitrated cotton won't be able to SDT/DDT - it has to be compacted so a shock can self-propagate and
self-reinforce through it. In addition it should be confined, so we are probably looking at a hard NC rod made by dissolving NC in acetone in a filter
paper tube and drying it off, then putting the nearly pure NC rod in a metal tube. Primer at one end for SDT or light it with a pyrotechnic fuze for
DDT. |
By initiating it with just a flame/spark it needs large quantities of it to explode unconfined. If strongly confined, smaller quantities of it will
explode and burst the container to pieces, similar as black powder does under the same conditions.
For detonation using a blasting cap, the minimum amount required seems to be roughly 7 grams of it (and not in the "fluffy" form when the cotton is
nitrated, but finely divided and compressed), according to Abel's interesting experiments with it:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13283&...
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
-=IF=- you can get a true 13% NC you will see some interesting impact dets if a small (50-100mg) piece were compressed tightly and swatted w/ a hammer
on a heavy steel surface (wrapped in foil: use eye protection always). 12% is functional but does not act like 13%. The collodinal phenomenon starts
at about 12% and several grams might be initiated if contained and the train made in a manner of acute contact but it's at 13% that NC yields up all
the interesting phenomenon such as the Munroe effect, etc.
Often this not only requires significant mixed acids but the use of a type of cellulose that will allow (acid) contact though-out it's mass.
|
|
|
Blasty
Hazard to Others
Posts: 107
Registered: 25-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist | | I doubt it will DDT, even when compressed and confined unless you are dealing with very large amounts. I have detonated cellulose nitrate before, but
I had to use a large and powerful booster(TNP) along with my primary to get repeatable results. Do some tests. I bet a good primary explosive in a
well designed cap, or a compound cap with a strong and sensitive secondary at optimum densities is what could work on small scales.
|
Let me ask you again, since I did not get an answer in the other thread:
Was this nitrocellulose you detonated made from cotton or from some sort of already powdered cellulose?
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Blasty, sorry, I must of missed that question in the other thread. The nitrocellulose that was able to detonate was made from regular cheap cotton
balls that were pulled apart. They were nitrated in the same rough manner that I laid out in the other thread. Nitrated twice, using
NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> as the nitrate salt.
No impact tests were done, though I should have. I never really thought to try that on cellulose nitrate. I imagine the cellulose nitrate I had was
< 13% N, based on my difficulties with preformance, and so not the 'hexanitrate' I had falsely believed it to be. Still it makes a great fast
burning lacquer, dropping small balls of it over a lit match really impresses the kids, and it is a really fun nitration.
Edited: to remove any occurrence of sounding practical.
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire | As someone still working on my practical nitration experience, I enjoy nitrocellulose. The nitration process is benign and the product itself
predictable and difficult to detonate - unlike say nitroglycerin
But is it possible to get NC to detonate? How would you achieve SDT or DDT with it? |
Well .... I have good reason to beleive that if you nitrate
a cotton ball from the drugstore, roll it into a pill between your
fingers and put it on a hard surface e.g., the anvil on your vise.
Then hit it with a hammer it will snap. You could ramp
this up. Please observe the obvious precautions to keep spall out of your nose &c.
Me The Analogue Guy owns a original copy of this —
you can DL yours from Google.com/books.
Compressed Gun Cotton for Military Use
TRANSLATED FROM THE GERMAN of MAX VON FORSTER WITH AN INTRODUCTION MODERN GUN COTTON, MANUFACTURE, PROPERTIES AND ANALYSIS. BY Lieut JOHN P. WISSER,
USA NEW YORK: I). VAN NOSTRAND, PUBLISHER, 23 Murray and 27 Warren Streets. 1886.
[Edited on 9-9-2011 by The WiZard is In]
|
|
|
Mildronate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 428
Registered: 12-9-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ruido sintetico
|
|
I had tryed it with hummer it works
|
|
|
Blasty
Hazard to Others
Posts: 107
Registered: 25-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist | | Blasty, sorry, I must of missed that question in the other thread. The nitrocellulose that was able to detonate was made from regular cheap cotton
balls that were pulled apart. They were nitrated in the same rough manner that I laid out in the other thread. Nitrated twice, using
NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> as the nitrate salt. |
How did you reduce the nitrocellulose to powder? My understanding from reading Abel's experiments on it is that in its regular cotton-like form it
simply will not detonate by means of a blasting cap. It needs to be reduced to finer particles and compressed. However, achieving this reduction to
powder without the specialized machinery those guys had access to is not as easy as some would think. This is why if any of those cellulose powders
easily available nowadays gave as good a result as nitrating cotton it would save a lot of time and trouble for the experimenter without access to the
specialized machinery.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
I didn't reduce it to a powder. It was in smallish pieces and pressed with a c-clamp. I didn't det with a blasting cap, but with a large booster.
[Edited on 10-9-2011 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
If curiosities of a "snap-cap" type are of interest it's much easier to work with a nitro-starch type material. When examined it's obvious that there
are differences in various cellulose products and therefore our end product. The same is true with starch. Tapioca starch is chemically differentiated
from corn, etc. However it appears that (especially Tapioca) nitrates easier and to a higher degree.
Some years back I had experimented with nitrocellulose and found that the type of toilet paper that was made for recreational vehicles or septic
systems (that comes apart VERY quickly within minimal water) was perhaps a better source of highly purified material than medical "cotton" and
responded to mixed acids more completely. The starches appeared to reach a higher level easily & from a curiosities sake, I found them very
efficient.
A great of written material is available on nitro-starch as it became a TNT substitute during WWII and was seemingly as effective. It was even
packaged in the same manner.
|
|
|
Fusionfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 219
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Alright guys I tried hitting a small tightly rolled ball of NC (about the size of a soy bean or cotton bud tip) made from nitrated cotton wool between
a hammer and a concrete paving slab, several times. It did not detonate.
I prepared the NC through the mixed acid approach in an ice bath:
70ml H2SO4 (96%)
30ml HNO3 (70%)
5g cotton wool
45 mins later, washed and neutralised in NaHCO3
Should I be using a nitrate salt instead of 70% HNO3 (or more concentrated nitric acid) to get a higher degree of nitration?
Happy to post pictures or videos upon request if you think it'd help.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Try on a steel anvil. Concrete isn't smooth or hard enough IIRC.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Fusionfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 219
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | | If curiosities of a "snap-cap" type are of interest it's much easier to work with a nitro-starch type material. When examined it's obvious that there
are differences in various cellulose products and therefore our end product. The same is true with starch. Tapioca starch is chemically differentiated
from corn, etc. However it appears that (especially Tapioca) nitrates easier and to a higher degree. |
Interesting. I wonder if it is because there are more -OH groups (compared to carbon atoms) to nitrate in tapioca starch? NG has a 1:1 -OH to C ratio
| Quote: |
Some years back I had experimented with nitrocellulose and found that the type of toilet paper that was made for recreational vehicles or septic
systems (that comes apart VERY quickly within minimal water) was perhaps a better source of highly purified material than medical "cotton" and
responded to mixed acids more completely. The starches appeared to reach a higher level easily & from a curiosities sake, I found them very
efficient. |
I tried grinding dried nitrated toilet paper in a mortar & pestle to no success. It appears the same as normal toilet paper, except it had a
slight yellow tinge and felt a bit stiffer. Cosmetic cotton wool doesn't seem to yellow as much on nitration.
I think the best way to get NC powder is to nitrate fine sawdust and add some kind of anti-caking agent, e.g. PTFE spray (beware toxic fumes on
combustion).
Or you could blend toilet paper with some water, let it dry out, nitrate that and let the nitrated slurry dry + set in a porous mould.
| Quote: |
A great of written material is available on nitro-starch as it became a TNT substitute during WWII and was seemingly as effective. It was even
packaged in the same manner. |
Is there a chemical reason for why nitrostarch explodes better than nitrocellulose? They are basically organic polymers with -OH groups that are
substituted for -ONO2 groups.
[Edited on 10-9-2011 by Fusionfire]
|
|
|
Fusionfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 219
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Alright will give it a shot tomorrow and report back
Will also try sensitising it with a few specks of sand.
|
|
|
Blasty
Hazard to Others
Posts: 107
Registered: 25-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire | Alright guys I tried hitting a small tightly rolled ball of NC (about the size of a soy bean or cotton bud tip) made from nitrated cotton wool between
a hammer and a concrete paving slab, several times. It did not detonate.
I prepared the NC through the mixed acid approach in an ice bath:
70ml H2SO4 (96%)
30ml HNO3 (70%)
5g cotton wool
45 mins later, washed and neutralised in NaHCO3
Should I be using a nitrate salt instead of 70% HNO3 (or more concentrated nitric acid) to get a higher degree of nitration?
Happy to post pictures or videos upon request if you think it'd help. |
Your nitric acid has too much water. You need to concentrate it to get a better product.
|
|
|
Blasty
Hazard to Others
Posts: 107
Registered: 25-7-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire | I think the best way to get NC powder is to nitrate fine sawdust and add some kind of anti-caking agent, e.g. PTFE spray (beware toxic fumes on
combustion).
Or you could blend toilet paper with some water, let it dry out, nitrate that and let the nitrated slurry dry + set in a porous mould.
|
A while back I tried putting wet nitrated cotton + some more water in a blender to see if it could "pulp" it, but the results were not very
satisfactory. It did reduce the nitrated cotton to a more compact form but not to the point of an amorphous pulp. Perhaps this method would work
better with a nitrated paper that is mostly cellulose with little impurities.
[Edited on 11-9-2011 by Blasty]
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
I agree. Too much H2O won't get you to 13%. Should you try a mixed acid w/ a solid nitrate, take time to get a clear clean solution from your mix. If
using prills or anything that should be "lumpy" then do your best to reduce to to a fine mesh powder and mix in slow, equal amounts. Using pre-cooled
H2SO4 make that solution clear in it's mixing, etc. Heating your sulfuric acid down should also rid it of excess water should you be using a lower
grade of acid to begin with.
Nitro-starch is interesting from many of the same standpoints NC is. It is a complex precursor (& also needs a high % acid) yet it appears to
carry a higher percentage of nitrogen in the final product. Davis had some material on NS and almost every author who wrote of extensive nitrated
esters from the 1940's and earlier had something to say about it. The material begins as very tiny individuated particulate and this physical
attribute MAY have an influence on it's strength. As for chemical reasons why it should carry a higher level of nitrogen, several concepts have been
explored. Materials that begin with H (or OH groups) might have more available "room" for the bonding with N in esterfication. It's obvious that it is
a more complex material than cellulose. I was going to find a book "Military Explosives" (Weaver) where I think a bit more is written. Several authors
have written that corn (starch) has greater potential yet Tapioca is easier (in terms of N bonding). This may simply be a phenomenon of the physical
characteristics or both as corn appears to "float" on top of the acid without effort made to mix with consistency as it is a micro particulate (6-2
um). It had seen extensive use. However I have read a variety of counter-point ideas as to why it was employed successfully.
|
|
|
Fusionfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 219
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: |
Alright will give it a shot tomorrow and report back
Will also try sensitising it with a few specks of sand. |
Alright I whacked it between a hammer and the top of a steel vise. After a few attempts, I heard a very small crack but not all the NC was consumed.
Assuming it was a small detonation I heard, it appears that NC is capable of undergoing SDT but not capable of self-sustaining detonation throughout
its bulk.
I liked nitrating cellulose because I didn't have to distill 70% HNO3 to get RFNA/WFNA for a usable product to play with. But using a nitrate salt to
get a nearly anhydrous nitrating mixture in lieu of RFNA/WFNA is more convenient....
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire |
Alright I whacked it between a hammer and the top of a steel vise. After a few attempts, I heard a very small crack but not all the NC was consumed.
I liked nitrating cellulose because I didn't have to distill 70% HNO3 to get RFNA/WFNA for a usable product to play with. But using a nitrate salt to
get a nearly anhydrous nitrating mixture in lieu of RFNA/WFNA is more convenient.... |
This method works for me on la vise.
This from a page removed from a chemistry book by
me maybe 50 years ago. It has been kitchen tested
a number of times.
In a 250-cc beaker mix carefully [For saftey
sake do as you ought'r - add the acid to the water.], exactly
10 cc of water 68 cc. of concd. sulfuric acid, and 30 cc. of concd. nitric
acid. Cool the solution to 30o and introduce 1 g of absorbent
cotton, in a single piece. Stir the mixture from time to time
and maintain at a temperature of 30o for twenty minutes.
At the end this time remove the nitrate cotton by means
of a glass rod and transfer immediately to a large volume of
cold water. Wash thoroughly with cold water, and finally
warm water, until washings do not show an acid reaction
to litmus paper. Squeeze ad dry as possible and spread out
to dry in the air, at room temperature. The product
obtained in this way contains about 11.0 per cent nitrogen.
NB - The litmus test is close to useless. If you intend (though
I don't know why you would) store it. Either boil it for several
day changing water several times or treat it with urea.
I recommend doing this out of doors, the fumes emitted are annoying.
Checking Google.com/books, I believe this was extracted
from—
Laboratory experiments in organic chemistry
By Roger Adams, John Raven Johnson, Charles F. Wilcox.
Numerous editions.
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver | If curiosities of a "snap-cap" type are of interest it's much easier to work with a nitro-starch type material. When examined it's obvious that there
are differences in various cellulose products and therefore our end product. The same is true with starch. Tapioca starch is chemically differentiated
from corn, etc. However it appears that (especially Tapioca) nitrates easier and to a higher degree.
Some years back I had experimented with nitrocellulose and found that the type of toilet paper that was made for recreational vehicles or septic
systems (that comes apart VERY quickly within minimal water) was perhaps a better source of highly purified material than medical "cotton" and
responded to mixed acids more completely. The starches appeared to reach a higher level easily & from a curiosities sake, I found them very
efficient.
A great of written material is available on nitro-starch as it became a TNT substitute during WWII and was seemingly as effective. It was even
packaged in the same manner. |
Nitrostarch?! Forsooth. When nitrostarch walks into the room
real explosives like TNT laugh at it for its obvious disadvantage
as an explosive.
Not what I was thinks of here are a few more courtesy of
Köhler and Meyer's 6th.
Nitrostarch
Nitrostärke; nitrate d’amidon
[C6H7O2(ONO2)3]n
pale yellow powder
empirical formula of the structural unit: C6H7N3O9
oxygen balance at 12.2% N: –35%
density: 1.6 g/cm3
maximum value attainable by pressing: 1.1 g/cm3
lead block test: 356 cm3/10 g
deflagration point: 183 °C = 361 °F
impact sensitivity: 1.1 kp m = 11 Nm
Nitrostarch is insoluble in water and ether, but is soluble in ether
alcohol mixtures and in acetone.
Nitrostarch, with various nitrogen contents (12–13.3%), is prepared by
nitration of starch with nitric acid or nitrating mixtures. The resulting
crude product is washed in cold water and is then dried at 35– 40 °C.
Nitrostarch resembles nitrocellulose in several respects, but, owing to
its poor stability, difficulty in preparation and hygroscopicity, it is not
used anywhere outside the USA. “Headache-free” industrial explosives
are based on nitrostarch.
This from— TM 9-1910 Military Explosives April 1955
  
For more than you probable want to know 'bout nitrostarch see
Urbanski II p. 418-438
Byda Urbanski's ref [23] can be read in part at Google.com/books. The least expensive copy of the
book I locate is US $49. This exceeds the books cost
vs value requirement.
|
|
|
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nitrostarch mas
From PATR-2700
Attachment: PATR 2700 Nitrostrarch.pdf (1.1MB)
This file has been downloaded 1290 times
|
|
|
Mydtys
Harmless
Posts: 1
Registered: 11-9-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Use acetone. hit the dry NC with hammer... then you'll be surprised
|
|
|
Fusionfire
Hazard to Others
Posts: 219
Registered: 8-7-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You mean use acetone to dissolve the NC and dry it in a mould into a pill?
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Yes, I believe that is what he is talking about. It is even possible to roll the sticky goop up between your fingers and form a little ball. Or, you
can pour it between some foil to make a little plastic sheet that can be cut into little pieces when dry. It takes a little while for it to dry
thoroughly. Make sure your acetone is water free.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
